Speaker 0 00:00:07 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:55 Hello. Thank you for joining too, into disability and progress. This is Cathy I, 90.3, FM, Minneapolis and KFC high.org. This is disability and progress where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam I'm. The host of this show. Charlene doll is my research team, Annie Harvey engineers. Thank you all for listening. If you want to be on the email list, you may email
[email protected]. Today, we're speaking with Emily and Richard Gibbs, Emily and Richard own a company called 64 ounce games. And we're going to be talking about that tonight and how it works. I want to start out guys by having you give us a little bit of history, just a little bit of history about you guys and what you do outside of this.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Well, I am a, um, life skills teacher and, um, I've worked with blind students quite a bit in my years as a life skills teacher. And, um, I have knowledge of braille pronouns. Um, I happened to be a teacher of students with visual impairments. I learned braille when I was at eighth grade. And, um, since then I just realized that it was my, so I, um, I became a teacher of blind students in my early twenties and I been doing that ever since.
Speaker 1 00:02:26 So you guys have a company called 64 ounce games. Um, talk about when that started and how did you get the name?
Speaker 2 00:02:34 All right. Um, so we started this, I don't know, about seven or eight years ago. Um, it's quite a while now. Um, well I'm a big board game guy. I love, um, board games like settlers, tan, dominion, um, obscure board games that you now you're starting to see them in, uh, like target, but at the time you really have to go hobby direct stores. You won't find anything like to get the ride anywhere other than if you were specifically seeking it out. Um, but I I've loved those board games for years and years. Um, and when Emily was going through her master's program, um, especially during that time, he had a lot of wine friends and one of the things that was always a struggle for me is one of the ways that I communicate. I like spend time with people is to play without a board game and play there.
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Now, the problem was that all of our friends are blind. There's a big issue there because they can't actually play the four games. Right. Um, so when we were, um, in my master's program, we had a lot of blind friends and we started to try to adapt. And what we realized was it's harder than it looks. Um, later when we were kind of circling back around to it, Richard wanted to publish a game. He's a game designer, as well as the, as games he's designed. And we were talking about, if you were going to publish, you gave me the, we should make it accessible. It should be in braille as well. And what we discovered then was that companies that make board games don't understand brands and companies that understand braille don't understand board games And, um, create a game that was braille accessible. It was on us, nobody was doing it. Nobody understood how, and it kind of changed the focus of what we were trying to do because we realized right away that it's important. And if nobody's doing it, somebody needs to.
Speaker 1 00:04:45 And how did you get the name?
Speaker 2 00:04:48 Uh, so, um, we're big fans of game of Thrones. We've been for years and years, we have a 15 year old dog whose name is Dan. And in game of Thrones, each family has like a symbol that represents. And so we were talking with friends years and years ago and they were like, well, what do you think your, your schedule would be? Or your side of your house? And one of her friends laugh is dead. Well, it would be a big dog because Richard loves her and there, we got, went to float. So the side of the house Gibbs will be a 64 ounce cup. And from there we got 60 grounds.
Speaker 1 00:05:31 Uh, so are you, are you guys visually impaired at all?
Speaker 2 00:05:37 No. We're both sides. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:05:39 Wow. What a leap in some respects. Uh, so you guys kind of teach in the fields, but you also make games in the fields. Um, that's like you guys are like diehards. So when you guys growing up, what was that like for you? Were you guys always like, did you guys play a lot of games when you were each young?
Speaker 2 00:06:04 Um, I, my, that was my family. Doesn't talk to one another, we don't do any other except I mean, down together, and that's always been part of my life. That's what I always think of when I think of like first semester of being together, family playing board games, and that's always been part of our life when, um, Emily, uh, dating. Um, I tried to bring that into our relationship. Um, it just so happened that when we started dating, um, very, very early in our relationship, we've been dating two months when I was diagnosed with cancer. Um, and so I dropped out of college and, um, Richard and I were going to different schools, but we were only about 45 minutes apart and suddenly I had to move home. And so now I was three hours away from him. And so he would come over on weekends and he would bring board games with him.
Speaker 2 00:07:01 And so it so happens that settlers of Catan is one of our favorite games. And it also has a very special meaning to us. He gave me that for our six month anniversary. And then when we, after we were married, we bought together a collector's edition pack, which has very tall hand sculpted, beautiful three, we call it our fine China because we don't actually have like special dishes, but we have this really special board game. Uh, so I'll go ahead. And it's going to say in the last year, or couple of months after we've had this company for, I don't know, eight, eight years, we finally figured out a way to make settlers accessible. It's one of our, um, it's definitely one of our loves and we offer it on our website, I think. Or I know that we're the only place in the world that you can actually get an accessible version of. Yeah, we thought it was really important because it's so special to us that, um, we had been planning on making it accessible for years. And finally we got the right technology and the right, um, the equipment to really do a justice and really wanted to do it. Right.
Speaker 1 00:08:14 So if you each had to pick a favorite game that you were, you loved to play when you were growing up, what would it be?
Speaker 2 00:08:23 Well, when I was growing up, it would have probably been, um, uh, settlers or Catan as they call it now. Um, I mean, we played all sports and games. I played lots of risks and, um, but I would say probably the most formative game, Emily, I didn't play a lot of what are called Euro games. Um, and that's the particular kind of game that settlers is. Um, until I met Richard, but growing up my family and my friends, we played tons of cards.
Speaker 1 00:08:58 Ah, yes.
Speaker 2 00:09:01 So I can remember, especially during high school and college, um, just sitting around and playing card games for hours,
Speaker 1 00:09:11 I want to get into talking about the process of making these games accessible.
Speaker 2 00:09:18 Well, the process is going to be very individualized depending on what the, um, particular game is that we're doing. Um, so one of the key things is going through the game and figuring out what is important, what is the information that needs to be, um, communicated to the blind players and, and that information is going to be identical. Does it any information that, um, the cited player? So, um, depending on how complex the game is, if it has a lot of time in the card, I might have to go to use something like a QR code, but it's preferable. If I can do it in something simple, um, simple like braille and I, I prefer not use technology when I'm doing it, because I think that that slows up the game and prevents it from being gone. So I try to, um, do things with like reference sheets and braille whenever possible, because, um, someone can read braille a lot faster than they could use, um, uh, technology to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 00:10:26 Now, some of our games aren't going to be, um, well, let me describe exactly what, um, so once I decide that this game is going to have braille, what I'll do is I'll type it up in word and, um, hearing it, um, I might, depending on the game, I might have some abbreviation for some of things. Like if the game uses, um, would is a resource. A lot of times I might just put a w for it every time and I'd include some instructions every time you see a w it means, um, just to speed it up because braille is, um, big and the braille stickers are expensive. Um, the games themselves come with, um, we don't sell the games themselves. We sell, um, what we call accessibility kits. And what's in an accessibility kit is basically braille stickers that people can cut out and put on their car games.
Speaker 2 00:11:26 And then the, um, some of their parents, parent, the sighted and braille, uh, braille reading users can use it at the same time and play, play the same games in the same way. Um, some of our games though, that do have more tech my ass off like a QR code, and they can use their iPhone or whatever device that they have to scan that QR code and get that information is, um, a little bit longer and more wordy. A lot of times, um, the card games we'll have is like, it'll have a picture of a monster and maybe a little paragraph about what that monster is. Well, you don't really need the paragraph to play the game, but, um, it's, um, flavor text, and, uh, it can kind of add to the theme of the game or what have you. So if there's a description of the dragon, we type up that description, but we put it in a QR code.
Speaker 2 00:12:23 So the blind flare cares, they can grab out their cell phone, scan it, read the same text and, um, be immersed in the game. The same way that a sighted flare would be tends to be cute or funny or witty. It's just there to make me smile, but it doesn't have any real bearing on how you play the game. The biggest example that we have of that would be properly, um, apples to apples, Oh, this has, it has the name of the card. And then it has a joke associated with the part, or if it's a little bit more of a score, like a historical figure, it might tell a little bit about the historical figure if you don't really need it to play, but if you, um, but players might want access to it while they're playing the game.
Speaker 1 00:13:10 Okay. So how many games have you to date done up accessibly? Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 00:13:20 That depends on how you look at it. Um, we hit like dominion for instance of the card game. It's called a, um, it's called a deck building game where you have, um, you build a deck of cards as you're playing the game. And every time you play with different cards, one of my favorite games, but, um, in that they have a lot of expansion packs, which are separate purchases. So if you count dominium plus all the expansions that we support well, that alone is, um, almost 20 games. Um, and the same thing is true of smash out. And, um, munchkin, we offer the game and a bunch of expansion. So if you can't count each one of those separately, um, I mean that's 50 games, they're cards against humanity. Um, I, I want to, if I wanted to give it best, do you have any idea, a hundred games, at least. I mean, if you're counting them that way, um,
Speaker 1 00:14:23 When you decide to do, like you were talking about the kits that you put stickers on the cards can, you know, can these people read through the cards? So like if you're playing with a sighted player, they can see through the braille.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 Absolutely. The assumption is, and is the prob most times, um, it'll be one blind person playing was three sighted friends, but it's, that's not always true because we've had, um, why do people love to play together? And they'll get, um, groups together and they'll play Bonanza or whatever the game is that they particularly light. Right. Or, um, we have several friends who are a couple. And so we have, we know a lot of troubles versus the games or play just the two of them. Um, go ahead. I don't know where I was going with that
Speaker 1 00:15:15 When you decided to start, like, how did you decide what game to start with at first
Speaker 2 00:15:22 You looked at our shell of what we did and we wanted to do the games that we thought were most, most interesting and most unlike what blind people have been offered before. Right. Um, a lot of when you just look at, um, you know, APH or maxi AIDS, you see Scrabble and monopoly and UNO and braille hunts. And so you wanted to offer new things that, um, perhaps five carriers I've never played with one because there's such a huge wide range of games out there and wide range of genres, um, and wide range of the camp. And so the first thing that we really try to do is we really tried to pick one really good. What's called evergreen games game that never goes out of publishing every single mechanics for war games and offer that. And now when we have all of that, and then we started thinking, well, I really like this other game, but we should offer that too. And there's been times where publishers have approached us and said, Hey, can you make our game accessible to get, um, and depending on who it is, we might, um, do that. And sometimes we've had requests from blind players. This is the specific game that I'd like to have accessible and like, okay, we'll do it. Right. And so we'll do take requests now that we've gotten going, but that's how we start.
Speaker 1 00:16:48 So you talk about, um, doing these kits and I'm wondering why wouldn't it be easier if you just did the game and resold it,
Speaker 2 00:17:00 Um, reasonably do the kids is a time constraint. Um, uh, as we said, we are full-time teachers. So, um, it would be time, um, in prohibitive to actually open up and take the game and put stickers on every single card. If you're talking about cards against many well, that's 600 cards in that game, 600 stickers and put them on there and it would be a better product. Sure. But, um, the fees that we charged to actually do that, um, would put it out of the, um, it would be astronomical so this way, um, it makes it easier for us to make it also makes it more affordable. And, um, for end user, they only have to put one game together where if we were selling the game that was already adapted, we would have to give you a hundreds and hundreds of hots.
Speaker 1 00:17:58 What kind of material is the braille generally done on?
Speaker 2 00:18:02 Um, generally we use, um, sticky braille, which is just, um, it's a transparent braille sticker. Um, however, if we have access to a 3d printer now, and we make, um, things like 3d printed braille dice or role-playing games dragons. So, um, depending on what needs the particular game has, is even going to be on sticky braille, where sometimes we've done thermoform boards, um, example that ticket for ride, which has a big board of the United States. So you can actually feel like the great lakes or that, or the Florida or wherever it has a big map of the United States. We also, um, another example would be fandom, which is, you know, right now, but it has a large board that shows the entire world, right. And with some of those games that really get sprawling, we'll also include like a, uh, a reference sheet that is smaller so that the, um, wine person can read the, use the reference sheet to read, Oh, this, this city is connected to this city because they're right next to one another without the board, just so that they can get an idea of the, um, geography, which, um, I think is a great thing to have the blind players do because they don't have a lot of experience using tactile graphics or, um, or being able to really even see a good map of the United States.
Speaker 2 00:19:35 So that's one thing that I really love about doing that is that, um, in our schools, we don't have access to the level of, um, accessible format, tactile graphics as we should. And that's really unfair. And I feel like, um, some of the stuff that we've done with 64 out schemes can help fill some of those gaps that really shouldn't exist. And, um, one thing that we do aside from doing the game stuff is we also make some braille materials and teaching tools to try to promote the use of braille and tactile graphics all around because that's very important. Braille literacy is literacy for, and as too often, that falls to the wayside because they say it's too hard or something. Um, we do a few of our kids do not require braille, but the vast majority of them do, um, we do have some games that you can play just, um, yeah, we have some games that don't require braille because they are more suited with, um, different tactical graphics. Um, and good. That's what makes sense for the gate. Um, because like there's a game that has a task that you have to follow called syrup. And, um, really it's just being able to follow that line. Even, there's no words, it's just a lie. Right. So, so it's the games that we choose to do that with are the games that it makes sense to you that,
Speaker 1 00:21:13 And is there, I know sometimes what, for me, like I do a lot of cards and I think sometimes braille can rub down on cards or where they're not as they don't stay as good. How do you deal with that on your, you know, do you find that that happens and people have to order a new kid occasionally, or
Speaker 2 00:21:34 We haven't found that to be an issue. And I think it's because the stickers are more durable because they're, um, type of plastic. So, um, they don't really seem to Rob out. Yeah. They're rubbed down the way. Traditional braille, sometimes stuff. I mean, we've done braille was blatant Silas's games, you're just saying, and the last for awhile, um, with just the card stock, but not forever. And I won't claim that ours last forever, but I hear people tell us that, or I haven't noticed the same people reordering stuff. Right. And we haven't heard them in the items that we have that are plastic or thermoformed, um, also don't, they hold up very well.
Speaker 1 00:22:21 So how do you decide now? I mean, now you've got a ton of games under your belt. How do you decide how to keep, which way to keep going, what game you're going to pick next?
Speaker 2 00:22:33 Um, well, one of the things that we're doing as a big push initiative right now is, um, there is, there's a series of games, which they're not really connected because they're done by a different manufacturer, but, um, they're my first games. So like a publisher will have a hit game, like carp zone, and there'll be like, all right, this is a great game. Um, but how can we present it in a way that's a little bit simpler that kids can play. So, um, there's a bunch of my first teams that we've started doing because they're, um, a little bit simpler. The kids can play them and then they can evolve into the, um, the bigger games that adults can enjoy. A lot of times, even in playing a game, you need to be, um, you know, turn-taking or light touch playing the graphics on a map, even reading a lot of those are maybe not necessarily intuitive. And I've met a lot of blind adults who didn't have a lot of experience with tactile graphics and don't understand how to read because never had that growing up. And so he's, my first pains are a great way to introduce blind children, to tactile graphics and get them playing games and then move into more complicated graphics as they get.
Speaker 1 00:23:57 I'm wondering guys, um, you know, there's a lot of games out there and there's a lot of them that have a lot of rules and a lot of this, and a lot of that. Are there ever a games that you have come across that you just feel you cannot do justice to making an accessible?
Speaker 2 00:24:16 Absolutely. And I think as we get more equipment and we get better at it, um, those games, the amount of games that we can't do, lessons, for instance, we didn't feel equipped to be able to make a good accessible version of settlers of Catan until this year. But we're always trying to kind of refine our process, get newer equipment, get better ways to design these gets so we can do more and make better quality kits. Um, sometimes the mechanics of the game can make that kind of tricky as well. Um, one of the first games that we did, we had to puzzle over for awhile and that's, um, the resistance of the game where you play as, um, as a group in this evil dystopian worlds, that's a game for five to 10 players and a certain number of those players, depending on the player count are evil and trying to, um, actively work against you actively work against the resistance.
Speaker 2 00:25:16 So there are spikes. So, um, one of the mechanics in that game is everybody closes their eyes. And, um, then the people who are evil, open their eyes. So they look at each other while staying perfectly still, and then they close their eyes. And so they, the evil people know who else is evil and they can work together to try to foil the resistance and keep the dystopian future dystopian. Um, so we had come up with a way that they could communicate it without giving away to everybody how to do that. And we do that by, um, um, passing tactile cards under the table. And if you're a, um, if you're one of the evil people you can read, you can read the car, but if you're not, you don't read the card, you just reading, it involves a degree of trust. Um, we just use a simple X and an O.
Speaker 2 00:26:16 So even those dumb sighted people can, um, right. And it does kind of rely on the honor system, original ruling where you just close your eyes does as well, anybody compete. And so, I mean, if you're going to play a game, aren't you going to play by the rules or otherwise it's no fun, brave. That's right. What's the point? I like it talking about, um, some other games like, um, uh, probably a lot of people are familiar with Jinga, um, creating like an accessible version of a dexterity game. Like that is exceedingly difficult to try to, I mean, you can do a version of Jenga where you wear a blindfold and do it completely, um, technically, but that it would be a different game would be a different game. And, um, so at some point you can make modifications, they make modifications, but, um, and at some point it becomes something entirely different than what this can't capture that same experience. So yes, we, we, there are some games that we just cannot do because, um, by the time we get something that they can do, it said something else.
Speaker 1 00:27:33 What is the hardest game that you've ever made accessible?
Speaker 2 00:27:39 Um, probably, yeah, I would say probably take it for ride or not because it's, um, because it has a big sprawling board and, um, and I needed to figure out a way to present it with, um, there's a big sprawling board in there's connections between the two cities and there's a certain amount of brains on each connection and each train has a certain color on it. So I needed, um, not only do you need communicate the names of the cities, you have communicate what's on the path, how many spaces are on the path and what color is on the path, all in the area of like an intercut, right? It's one of those that we designed it and redesigned it redesigned it even today. We're always looking for other ways to kind of make it a little bit better. We, um, I just remember it was, so we used our laser cutter to engrave a piece of acrylic with the map on it and go over that map.
Speaker 2 00:28:44 And so that took a lot of iterations and a lot of making it correct. And I think it was on a 12 hour engrave for each of the four quadrants. And so it was like two days of sitting in the garage, two full days, breathing in a melted acrylic as a lizard at our cut into it. Um, and weren't sure if it was going to be right or not, and he did it once and it wasn't right. So we had to do a whole nother time, um, but at a much better product now. And I'm very proud of that product. And if we do any more games with big boards, I kind of want to do it the same way. Um, so our hard ones are, um, often, um, the ones that you learn the most, um, another one that I'm particularly proud of would be, uh, Carcassone, which is a, um, which is a tile laying game where the city of park and you build.
Speaker 2 00:29:43 Um, and that's one of our games that doesn't require a braille. Um, but I'm trying, I have 3d printed pieces that are in multiple colors and textures and all this stuff that fits together and they all click in together and, um, and they have little pieces that fit into the spot. So, um, so you have these one inch tiles that are three printed, multiple different colors, spots, four pieces do snap into so that you don't knock them over when you're playing and getting that right. I break a piece, um, lots and lots of times to try to get, make sure that it snapped in, right. And that they were attached to each other correctly. And the game has, um, I don't know, at least probably a hundred different tiles. So that needs a hundred different 3d printed tiles that sit together into this beautiful, um, castle and, um, landscape and fields, but getting all of those pieces, right.
Speaker 2 00:30:48 In addition to the pieces that you placed on the tiles was definitely a struggle as well. Right. Um, I think it's important to note that every time we make a new product, every time we make a new pick, we learn something and we realized that maybe one of the kids we had previously, we could do better, but then we have to go back and redesign it. So we're always learning and always growing iteration is a huge part of the whole process. And, um, and when we get better technology, um, we can make kids better. We recently bought another, a different embosser. So one of the things that we're struggling with now is all right, which one of these kids do we have to do differently so that we can provide this instruction by, um, what, what, what's the term duplex in our points, our points.
Speaker 1 00:31:41 So if you had to pick one game that is your pride and joy that you've done, what would it be?
Speaker 2 00:31:48 Um, I'd say, um, Catan is, uh, one of the ones that I'm most proud of. Um, the ones that I've been talking about, other ones that I'm most proud of? Probably my favorite, just because it's so close to our heart, we wanted to make it accessible for so long. And finally we have accomplished that. And I think that ticket to ride would be another one that I'd definitely do that because I, like I talked about, um, lot of people not having access to good naps and stuff, I thought that was really important to get out. And, and it's a fantastic game, classic game sold millions of copies. And I'd definitely recommend that.
Speaker 1 00:32:34 Well, Emily, you deal with teaching kids in braille, right? Yes. So do you ever use these games in your classroom?
Speaker 2 00:32:43 Yes. Um, I've recently left the classroom and now I work for a nonprofit and I do use my, I use our games there as well. Um, but yeah, before I left the classroom, I was using our games because I think that, um, playing games is a way that people learn and being able to play games and teach braille at the same time. It makes it the learning of real easy and fun.
Speaker 1 00:33:07 Mm. And do you feel, I mean, it feels like that builds up so many other skills too, including team, you know, work team, working together and team building, things like that.
Speaker 2 00:33:23 Absolutely. Here in Texas, we talk about the expanded core curriculum, um, which are kind of like all those soft skills that maybe everyone learns, but you don't, aren't taught directly. And a lot of times, um, blind and visually impaired students, don't just pick that stuff up because it might be non visual or it might be, do not directly taught. And I think that games teach a lot of those expanded core curriculum skills. Absolutely. Definitely. We need to work. We've worked on that, those skills a lot.
Speaker 1 00:34:00 You have anything, as far as, um, this, I feel like this is always an important thing and I don't, I don't see anything anywhere about it, but I really feel like there should be some thing that goes out when parents have kids who are visually impaired or blind, or even if you've got blind parents and you have sighted kids, there's that, it feels like that chain where you might naturally play games with your kids. You just don't know what to do and what they don't know. You know, they can't know what they don't know. Right. So, um, it feels like there should be something that gives them some kind of announcement, Hey, your games can be made as accessible. Um, but I don't, you know, certainly when I was growing up, I didn't, I had to stumble upon that and things like that. Um, now I think it's more out there, but it would be interesting to have schools just have, uh, you know, kind of your guys's website or something. So that would be something that they would give to parents.
Speaker 2 00:35:05 And that's something that we're trying to do. Um, it's a bit of a struggle because as we both have full time jobs, a degree of success that we have with 64 ounce games, that's like, we want to be successful because we think what we're doing is important. But at the same time, we always think, well, maybe we don't want to be too successful because we don't, we're afraid where we get to the point where we're successful enough, that we're busy and so busy. We might have to quit one of our, but not right well enough that we can't actually afford to quit one of our jobs. Right. But our job right now with what we're pulling in with 64 ounce games. Um, but, um, we want to get there someday. And I, we somewhat jokingly call it our retirement plan because we're not super thrilled with her, but our retirement is going to be, um, so, so if we can do a working job and be some income there, um, that that's where we'd like to be. We'd like ramp up the business and, um, send out emails to everybody, but getting, uh, getting it so it's can, is comparable to what our salary would be otherwise as is quite a week.
Speaker 1 00:36:24 Right. Can you give us the website and how people can find out more about your game?
Speaker 2 00:36:31 Our website is www dot six, four Oh Z games.com. And you can find out all of the, our accessibility kits there, as well as sign up for our newsletter. You can follow us on Twitter at www.twitter.com/six, four Oh Z Gates.
Speaker 1 00:36:52 I want to ask you real quick, um, on your website, notice, it talks about you saying, uh, you should have the most updated game and that it's harder to do old games. Do they really update games?
Speaker 2 00:37:06 Yes, they do. It, it drives us crazy.
Speaker 1 00:37:10 See, I just figured, you know, one game that you had from when you were like 10 or 12 would be the same, especially if it's like, you know, I don't know, like how did it,
Speaker 2 00:37:21 Well, it was probably exactly the same as when we were 10 or 12, but the games that they update and make more current or games like on the two particular thorns in our side are apples to apples and cards against me because things change. It has, you know, the president changes or some current and politics. They want to make those into jokes. Right. New cards is COVID-19 that didn't exist. Oh yeah. So, um, we, when they came out with a new version, we had to, um, go through all the 500 powers and say, all right, is this one different? No. Is this one different? I mean, it's a big process. And some of the games, um, they'll change the artwork because like, um, risk and this isn't a game we offer because it's really, um, but risk has different boards throughout history. They're all maps of the world, but they've used different artwork, different artists.
Speaker 2 00:38:19 And if they use a different artwork or different artists, that means the shape of the board change and where you'd need to put the pieces change. And so we try to offer links on the website to the app, to Amazon, because it also depends on what, what gave you buy or what Amazon is offering. And sometimes Amazon will send a different version, even that it offers on its website because they figure they're interchangeable. But for our purposes, they're not right. For instance, I just had one of our games, um, as some really printed components. And there was a family that had a game from 10, 10 years ago, they've owned it forever. And they just assume that it would be, so they sent me this email say, look, the kid is okay, but it doesn't fit. And then I look at the pictures. I'm like, well, of course it doesn't pay it. You're using the old one. Let me be your one for you. So they thought that the kid just didn't work. Whereas it wasn't that the kid didn't work it's that the kid wasn't for the version that they had. And they just like you, they wouldn't have occurred even began to occur to them that they might have different versions, but a big company like Hasbro or Mattel or something like that. They, they want to keep their stuff looking fresh on the shelf.
Speaker 2 00:39:45 Um, even though it's just minor changes, those minor changes can be a big difference in how well our kids stay.
Speaker 1 00:39:53 So do you kind of save the kids from the old ones, thinking that somebody will contact you and say, Hey, I have this game from this year, do you have a kit to match it?
Speaker 2 00:40:07 Well, because all of everything that we make is made to order, we don't keep like a stock so we can keep the digital files for the older versions of games just in case. No,
Speaker 1 00:40:38 That is just how it goes nowadays with zoom and radio, the whole family gets involved.
Speaker 2 00:40:47 Oh, we can barely even fit the whole family in this room. We have five kids. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:40:52 Oh my well, plenty of game playing then,
Speaker 2 00:40:55 Right? Yep. That's for sure.
Speaker 1 00:40:58 So what is your guys's? What has been your guys's biggest learning thing with doing something like this?
Speaker 2 00:41:08 Um, um, I think that, I don't know exact, like this is the time we were in the most, um, except maybe took the ride again, just because it trumps so many different iterations and so many different tries, but I know that we have learned so much over the course of seven years, that what we're doing now, even in terms of the way that we organize our file on our computer and the way we create games and the way everything has changed so much, because we've learned so much doing this, we don't work the same way now that we did seven years ago. Um, but I would say the biggest thing that we've learned is that, and we knew that, but we didn't know this as how much the experience of game play has been lost on blind public, how they have hope. I mean, they think that they know games because they played an accessible version of monopoly and accessible version of, you know, when they tried them and it wasn't their thing.
Speaker 2 00:42:12 And then they just assume that they're done with Ames breath. And the fact is that there are so many different experiences. Sometimes you have games that are cooperative. Sometimes they have games that are competitive. Sometimes you have games, party games. Sometimes you have games that are strange and games in the after thing. There are so many different approaches and different things that gate, um, applying people, um, having had that experience, the opportunity to do so they don't know what they're even missing. And that was, I would say that was the biggest thing that I've learned is this is that, um, the, the, through the joy of being able to present these things that I've loved for years and years and people who say I don't like games, and then they actually games and they're like, wait, wait, what else do you hear? What else do you hear?
Speaker 2 00:43:08 And they realize that there's been this huge thing they've just never been exposed to. And they've never gotten an opportunity to do, because frankly it isn't very profitable to do something like this. But I think there's a very important to do something like this. And there's been times where I've been frustrated and I've wanted to close up shop. I am. But then I think back back at 64 ounce games, and even if I'm tired and all this stuff with my other job and everything else, and I'm stressed out and I think, why am I even doing this? I think about those, um, those people who haven't had a chance to do something that I just take for granted. And I, and I think that it's important. And I think that it's so sad that, um, that I, I don't want to so that if I didn't do it, it wouldn't, it just wouldn't be done.
Speaker 1 00:44:12 Yeah. Yeah. People would miss out on a lot. So what is your, what's your hope, what's your wish for the future of 64 ounce games?
Speaker 2 00:44:22 Well, I would like to get it to the point where I could actually step back from, um, my current position and make it into something where I could work. I'm doing 64 hours games offer, um, offer everything, uh, more, more things and get it more lives. Right. Um, we have a lot to do, and it's a big leap from it being sort of manageable to, to that stage. And I, I don't know when we're going to make that leap, but it's going to be, but that, that would be my hope is that I think we could do it, um, like fall back.
Speaker 1 00:45:05 Have you guys ever had any thoughts of actually creating your own game?
Speaker 2 00:45:10 Oh, I eat, I have lots of games where I'm trying to sell, um, a 64 on steams could, um, I originally created it in order to, um, um, created the company in order to, um, become a game publisher and published my own games that I've created. But yeah, Richard isn't at work or helping you around the house and the kids he's playing games, whether it's published games or he spends probably 10 hours a week on discord doing what's called tabletop simulator. So it is games that he's created and he plays them with his friends all over the world. Um, so he probably spent hours doing that, trying to refine his veins. He has seven or eight that he's working out right now and getting them perfect. So we can present them to volunteers as well. I mean, games are really his passion and it really matches up well with mine because mine is definitely accessibility of real literacy. And so together, we're really a great team.
Speaker 1 00:46:20 You guys have five kids, right? You can just experiment on them, get them to play all together.
Speaker 2 00:46:28 Oh,
Speaker 1 00:46:31 Well, uh, I, this has been a great, I thank you again. Can you please give your website once more on how we can find out more about you?
Speaker 2 00:46:40 Um, you can email me@richardantsyorouncegamesthatyoucangotoourwebsiteatsixtyfourgamesthatcomorouncegames.com pending on if you want to take a little bit more, uh, and those would be the best ways to get a hold of us. I would say anything we're on Twitter. We're um, we have a Facebook page and I guess that's the main, that's the main way.
Speaker 1 00:47:11 Well, thank you so much for being on I'm Charlene. I don't know if you're un-muted, but if you had any questions now would be the time to ask. Otherwise, we'll go to our cultural piece. I don't have any questions, but it's, you guys are doing a really great thing because I grew up in a family of eight kids. I always
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Got left out kind of. And then when we played up leave and it's, I wasn't sure that I was being treated very, fairly.
Speaker 1 00:47:39 She was afraid they were taking all the money. That's what that was.
Speaker 2 00:47:44 So we wish you well in your endeavors.
Speaker 1 00:47:46 Yeah. Thank you very much for coming on. Thank you very much again. And, um, it's been great talking to you. This has been disability and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of cafe or toward of drafters. My name is Sam. I'm the host of your show. Thanks so much for choosing tuning in Charlotte and dog, our research team, Annie Parkview and news. We've been speaking with Richard and Emily Gibbs on their company, 64 O Z or a 64 ounce game. This is Kathy Imani points, B FM, Minneapolis, and cafe.org. Feel free to check out our podcast on if you need to and want to, and, um, be on my emailing list at disability and progress at Sam, jasmine.com. Thank you.
