Speaker 0 00:00:03 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:35 90.3, FM Minneapolis and KPI dot O R G. This is disability and progress. We bring you insights into ideas about in discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. Thanks for tuning in Charlene dolls. My research team getting me Charlene. Good evening, everyone. Good, whatever it's evening in our world. Okay. It's something in our world. Uh, tonight we're speaking about seeing high school and we're speaking with Glen Hoagland. Glenn is the president and CEO of the seeing high school. Uh, hello, Glen.
Speaker 2 00:01:12 Hello Sam. Hello, Charlene.
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Thanks so much for joining us. Uh, Glenn, I don't know that much about you. And, um, I think I'd like to know, first of all, how did you kind of discover the seeing eye and who they were?
Speaker 2 00:01:29 Sure. So, so I'd have to go back to almost when I was born in, in Morristown, New Jersey, uh, many, many years ago, which is of course the home of the seeing eye. And I grew up not far from, from here in Northern New Jersey. And although the seeing eye of course serves people throughout the U S and Canada, where we're based here and it's where our operations, our, our, our kennels and our, our main campus, our downtown training center in Morristown and our breeding station out in Chester, a little bit of West of here in New Jersey, but I grew up as a young child coming to Mars town and seeing the instructors, working with students and seeing the students working with their dogs on the green and on the streets of Morristown. And so it left a really indelible impression on me from as a young child.
Speaker 2 00:02:17 And, um, also my mother who was blinded at age 13, really always spoke in, in very Reverend terms about the seeing eye. And interestingly, although, you know, she was, was blinded suddenly as a young teenager and went on to leave lead a very rewarding life and did a lot of things. She never had a seeing eye dog. You know, she, he died fairly young at age 54 when I was teenager. But, uh, if I could go back and ask her, what was her personal barrier, you know, to getting a seeing eye dog, that would be the, the one question I would ask her now. But anyway, I grew up seeing these dogs and these people, and it just left an indelible impression on me. And, um, and then I've been so fortunate in my adult to, to have led many great nonprofit teams, really doing mission-driven work and having measurable, measurable, social impact.
Speaker 2 00:03:07 And, um, but I did that mainly in the area of nonprofit land conservation. And, um, so this was quite a career pivot for me. And, um, the interesting thing was after 35 years in land conservation, I was thinking to myself, what is the next step for me career wise? Or is there one? And, um, I really wanted to move more towards the human services field, although there's a lot of human service that goes on connecting people to the nature in their lives. Um, I really wanted to see what I could do. Um, and I was hearing my mother's voice and her admonishment, you know, to continue to try to find ways to do more and help people, uh, in the human services realm. And she did a lot of charity work herself. So, um, I thought about sort of off the top of my head, I said, Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 00:03:54 The seeing eye is, you know, my, you know, archetypal organization, I would love to run someday. And that was a passing thought because the seeing I wasn't looking for a president at that time, but then about a year later, I saw a job announcement, president and CEO of the CNI. And I said, wow, this is just serendipity or, uh, fate or whatever. Uh, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring. And, um, the recruiter for the position, um, was actually someone whose mother was blind. Also. She said, Glen, I took this position recruiting for this position for the seeing eye because my mother was blind too. And I thought I could really add something. And she said, I th I think you were a long shot given your career background. Um, but you run nonprofits. Uh, and they're looking for someone who has a strong, you know, um, experience level they're having run, you know, complicated non-profits and luckily here I am. So I'm just so honored, uh, just passed my one year milestone here as CEO. And, um, it's just such an honor to be here. And I'm just so impressed with the good work we all do together here at the seeing eye and, and our mission to enhance the independence and dignity. Uh, and self-confidence of blind people through the use of seeing eye dogs are specially trained dogs.
Speaker 1 00:05:13 Well, let's give people who, you know, we, we are global, so we are all over the world now that are web based as well. I want to talk about, have you give just a brief history of who the seeing eye is? I think a lot of people know about it, but I want you to kind of give a little history, um, obviously a little past that their guidance score.
Speaker 2 00:05:35 Absolutely. Well, the CNI is really the, um, the pioneer and best known. I think still among the guide dogs was one of the best known in the world. And we've been carrying out our mission since 1929. And, um, without going into a long history lesson, um, it was started by, you know, two co-founders Darthy Harrison used his who was a Philadelphia, um, socialite and philanthropist who had moved to Switzerland and was training dogs and breeding German shepherds. And she was working with and had experienced working with the, um, a school in Potsdam, Germany, although she was based in Switzerland, she traveled to and visited a school that was training. Seeing was training German soldiers. What were one soldiers who lost their sight in world war one with German shepherds. And these were the, some of the, the first known, you know, modern guide dogs being trained to guide people.
Speaker 2 00:06:32 And so Dorothy was asked to write about her experience in breeding and training shepherds in Switzerland. And she decided to write about this school in the Saturday evening post in 1928. And so she wrote an article called the seeing eye taken from the, you know, Proverbs, uh, in the Bible, uh, the seeing eye and the hearing year. And, um, she wrote about this incredible work and she had many, many letters from people in the United States, you know, wanting to benefit from coming over and being trained with a seeing eye dog, but one in particular stood out to her. And it was from a young man named Maurice Frank from Nashville, Tennessee, and Maurice was a young insurance salesman. Who said, if you will allow me to come to Switzerland and train with one of your dogs, I will come back and start a guide dog movement in the United States.
Speaker 2 00:07:24 And so he did that. He went to Switzerland, he trained with the first, really the first modern seeing eye dog and together, um, Dorothy and Maurice started, um, the seeing eye to eye movement in the modern sense. And the reason I say the modern sense is that if you go back and literature and art, you see dogs guiding humans back as early as the 12th century. Um, so of course, um, you know, humans and dogs have been companions and had co-existed for 20,000 years before Darthy and Maurice were sort of credited with among other starting the modern guide dog movement. And so, um, we have evolved from there over the years,
Speaker 1 00:08:06 You know, it's so fascinating to me because I, I really, I think a lot of people think of the U S as such a developing country in that we are first in so many things, but we are not first in many things pertaining to disabilities. Um, guide dogs is one of them. Uh, braille is another, and it's kind of amazing to me that other countries jumped on this little train before us and saw the potential. Uh, how can you,
Speaker 2 00:08:39 Let's say there are some other schools that were founded in the early twenties, one in Italy, and, um, maybe late twenties, one in the ones in Germany. Um, the one in Italy still exists today, uh, and the, but the ones in Germany, uh, no longer exists that, that were, that, that Dorothy visited back at that time. So there is an early history in Europe of, of this kind of work as well.
Speaker 1 00:09:02 How large is the seeing eye staff?
Speaker 2 00:09:04 So we are a staff of about 165 people. Um, we have, you know, uh, uh, our largest staff of course, is our instructors and trainers. And we have about 35 instructors, but we have a range of staff in, in canine development, uh, veterinary and vet techs and our kennel staff and our facilities and food service and housekeeping staff who support our students who come here for their, uh, live in, on campus experience during their training. So really a variety of staff. And then of course, administrative and, um, donor relations, support staff as well.
Speaker 1 00:09:42 I want to talk about dogs since this really is how many dogs to seeing I house at once. And how do they generally match a year?
Speaker 2 00:09:54 Yes. Well, there's a, it's a compound answer to your question. So if you think about our breeding station, we actually, um, about, about 500 puppies are born each year in a typical year. And those puppies after seven or eight weeks of being weaned from their mothers are then sent to our wonderful cadre of 500 volunteer puppy raiser family. So we start with 500 puppies. Then they go out to those families for 16 months to almost two years to be nurtured through their puppyhood and socialized, and then they come back. Um, and when they're ready, they come back when we're ready for them to our campus to come into training as seeing eye dogs, or just being selected as future breeders for our breeding program. So on campus at the seeing eye where we train the dogs at any given time, we might have about 260 dogs in a typical year. And we, in a typical year, we would create about 216 seeing idle partnerships, um, this past year due to COVID, which included a three month pause in our breeding, a four month hiatus and our dog training, and nearly five month hiatus in instructing our human clients, our students, um, we have nonetheless been able to adapt and move forward and create about 136 seeing eye dog partnerships. So we're hoping that we'll be able to get back to a higher number, but that is, um, that's what happened this year?
Speaker 1 00:11:27 What types of dogs do you use at the seeing eye and what are your most common or popular ones?
Speaker 2 00:11:33 Sure. Well, the most common and popular are Labrador retrievers. We also have golden retrievers and German shepherds. We're one of the first and still largest colony of German shepherds. Many people do like the shepherds, um, and, and many people, you know, feel that as time gone on the Labrador retriever has become the most popular type of seeing eye dog. However, we also cross, um, a Labrador and a golden. And, um, so we have, uh, we have a lab golden cross, and they're all great dogs. They're all very trainable in their own way. And it's really just having that selection in that preference for our different types of students in there to meet their needs.
Speaker 1 00:12:17 You know, I, and I know some schools maybe dabble a little with this, but there are people who say, you know, I'd really like to have a dog, but my dad's allergic or whatever. Have you, do you guys do anything with hypoallergenic dogs? And is there any plans to, if you don't currently?
Speaker 2 00:12:34 Yes. Well, we do actually, um, for the student who needs a hypoallergenic dog right now, we are typically using a poodle and, uh, in the past, the CNI has used boxers. Um, but, um, in modern times, uh, the poodle has really been the best Trent, most trainable, uh, hypoallergenic dog. And we are currently training a poodle that we acquired from another, um, fellow school and, um, making hoping to make a match. Um, so we're really excited about that. And we, so we will do that from time to time. And, um, we, we do provide that,
Speaker 1 00:13:12 Um, a talking standard poodle, not a toy poodle, obviously.
Speaker 2 00:13:16 Correct. It's a standard puddle. It's quite large, actually.
Speaker 1 00:13:20 That's funny. I want to just go off the beaten track a little bit and talk about the matching process, because it is more sophisticated than people think, um, you know, you don't go to the CNI and they say, Hey, it looks like fluffy likes you. I think you guys make a great team. Can you talk a little bit about how you do the match?
Speaker 2 00:13:39 Yes, I will. Um, so the match is really important and it starts with, um, of course we spend four months training the dogs with our guide dog mobility instructors, and the dogs are, you know, put through their paces, both on campus and out in the streets. And they really learn progressively, um, to not only move around obstacles and the like, and, and I'll get into all, any training detail in later questions, but at the same time, we are working with prospective students as part of the application process. And we're visiting those students in their home communities. If we can, this year, oftentimes it took the form of a remote visit, a virtual visit and, or, um, working with them using, um, you know, Google earth to see what their community looked like and to, to help assess their travel skills and to make sure that the students have, um, a good ability, a good orientation and mobility skills.
Speaker 2 00:14:35 And, um, they have to also have the, um, the amount of blindness that would, you know, really qualify them to work well with a seeing eye dog. And although we do serve visually impaired students, weren't totally blind. There is a, there is a degree of blindness that would make it possible to be a successful applicant of the seeing eye. So there's a lot of work that goes into, um, you know, qualifying our applicants. And then at the same time, we're, we're thinking about what does this applicant need in terms of their pace, their pull, their balance, their speed, um, and all of those issues. Then we're thinking about, well, with this, this set of dogs we have in training right now, who would be the best dog, this person. So there's some preliminary work done, but then when the students arrive on campus for the first day of their three or four weeks with us, some further work has done, um, to, um, qualify the student to work, um, with, to do a Juno walk, where they hold the harness, the instructor holds the harness and they walk with the student and they get a last minute feel for what the student really needs.
Speaker 2 00:15:41 And then we do, what's called the dog match meeting, which is really the high stakes game of poker here at the seeing I'm on our instructors. And they all have the, the, the vision of what the star would be, who this dog would be best suited for. And then they, they barter and trade, you know, among the, among them to make sure that they get the best match. Uh, and there's a lot of really good interplay between our instructors to make that match. So that's how it works. And, uh, and then there's always the possibility that the match doesn't work. And we find that out, hopefully while they're still here. And, um, if that is the case, then we can substitute a dog in and hopefully, um, train them up so they can go home successfully as a sustainable seeing item partnership.
Speaker 1 00:16:28 Well, and you do, I mean, people need to realize that there are so many pieces of the puzzle that go into it. You know, their dogs are in a certain setting, and then they go to this whole brand new setting now that I'm sure you guys try your best to match with that setting. You can never know totally what happens, um, in that setting with additions and whatnot. So, uh, people may move and then the move is just not, uh, the dog doesn't do well with that. Or there's so many things, you know,
Speaker 2 00:17:00 Right, right. Which is why we always provide those follow-up services and that field service to all of our graduates, so that if anything changes in their lives, a new job and a new route to work or any problems they might encounter in their home community, um, you know, with particular crossings or the like, uh, we can work with them once they are home with the dog. And like, you're right. Some dogs, you know, are really very good city dogs. And we know that from their four months of training with our instructors. And so we know which dogs might work better with a person who lives in an urban environment.
Speaker 1 00:17:34 I want to talk about the length of stay. When a student goes to the school, they stay about three weeks, I think is the time there's a difference between a first time and a repeat. That's why this is different.
Speaker 2 00:17:50 Sure. Well, today we have a class starting and it's our, our traditional class between Thanksgiving and Christmas is all returning grads who are replacing with a new dog and they will stay. Um, they're all coming in today, they've all quarantined and or tested. And so they, they are able to come to the seeing eye and spend three weeks or 18 days here in training. And, um, if they're a brand new student, um, most of our classes are about 50, 50 brand new students. And, um, returning students sometimes more like two thirds returning, and one third new, depending on the class, the newer students will stay 24 days. And so they get a little bit longer training first time through because our goal is really to make sure that they are really confident as a partnership when they go home with their dog.
Speaker 1 00:18:42 Did you, do you feel like, you know, I know some schools cut this time. Um, do you feel like there was a sense of, has anybody done a study of like how much that has affected the training between the dog and the student? Is there more returns? Is there, you know,
Speaker 2 00:19:04 I'm not aware of any studies and I am aware that different schools have different approaches and, um, we certainly, you know, don't, um, disparage any other school for how they might, um, what their training model is. But we have found that, um, this, this amount of time is, is about the minimum. We feel to be able to really send someone back to their home community, you know, feeling confident about their match. We've even held. You know, we've had students who say, I need a day or two more, and, um, if we can accommodate them here on campus, you know, we'll go home with them, send an instructor home with them and give them those last two days in their home community. If we're able to,
Speaker 1 00:19:45 You know, you do a lot of things with, uh, community support. I know I've seen you guys do many fundraisers. I remember hearing about pennies for puppies. There's many things you've done. Um, why is it so important to include the community?
Speaker 2 00:20:01 It is because as a nonprofit organization, the seeing eye, um, all were supported entirely by the generosity of individuals. So keeping as much of a high profile in the community is, is really important to us, not just to be able to recruit and attract, um, you know, students who want to come here by working with the schools for the blind and the ONM programs and other, uh, one, a service agencies who might be referrals for us, but working throughout the community. So the pennies for puppies is something where we have a volunteer who works in schools, and he works alongside our puppy raisers. And we'll also sometimes bring in a grad to, um, talk to students and their parents, um, about our program. And, um, it's a, it's a way of, of students, you know, contributing doing some fundraising together. We also have dollars for dogs for which is a corporate version of pennies for puppies.
Speaker 2 00:20:58 And we do presentations in corporations and businesses. We work a lot, um, on and off campus, um, you know, with volunteers. Um, so for example, we have a doggy dash, it's a community, um, walk and race. It's part of a larger community race, but we, we developed a doggy dash component of it. Um, that's a really fun event and it's a way of attracting friends to the CNI. We were planning on open house, um, under my new leadership, which, um, got canceled due to COVID. So that is on our drawing board and also have unbelievable, um, public program where people can come to the CNI. And we do about, we see about 2000 people per year in our weekly public program where they can come for a presentation, a tour, a demo, and, um, that we're developing a virtual version of right now, um, that will hopefully sustain us through this COVID era.
Speaker 1 00:21:55 This is such a weird time. That's all I can say. Um, and you have not been at the CNI very long. And so your experiences is one of unlike any other CEO and president, I would think, how have you adjusted to this? How has the seeing I adjusted to this start with how you guys dealt with things in the puppies and everything on the shutdown?
Speaker 2 00:22:21 Sure. Well, one of the things I'm really inspired by coming in as a new CEO of the CNI is just not only the generosity of our loyal supporters, supporters who really, you know, give from the heart, even though many of them will, will never actually need our services, but really that our staff is so focused on creating the best and most exceptional guide dog partnerships. And they're so motivated. And they're so steeped in the history and the core values of the organization and every single staff member, as well as our 500 puppy raisers have this great sense of pride and responsibility for every human and dog team that graduates from the program. So it's, it's that clarity of mission and purpose and the careful attention to the many details we've talked about that kind of help achieve our goal that, and, um, you know, that is really inspiring to, to be the leader of this organization.
Speaker 2 00:23:13 So, um, you know, with, with that in mind, we have had to make some adjustments. Unfortunately, I was here for several months before we had COVID, so I wasn't entirely a rookie, but I still have so much to learn about the CNI and our guide dog partnerships and what we do, and in the context of blindness services. But, um, as I mentioned, we, we have had to make some adjustments due to COVID and among those are that, um, we, we did have to, um, foster out back in March when our state went to a shutdown order, we had to foster out over 200 dogs from our campus that were in training. Some of them weren't near the end of their training would have been matched with students. And so they had to go back. It wouldn't have been good for them to languish in the cannibals.
Speaker 2 00:24:00 They couldn't have worked. So they went back to their puppy, raiser families. So our puppy raiser families did extra service. Many of whom were already raising one or two pups in various stages for us. And then they took back a dog they had already raised and then fostered it again. And, um, it was wonderful. And then of course we had to make sure that we weren't breeding too many dogs to really optimize our program. And so we had to cut back on our breeding in the month of may through about, um, late July. And we started up again in August and we should be able to balance out the number of dogs coming into the program, the number of dogs already in the program and the number of dogs leaving the program, which is of course how many matches we can create. So we try to really optimize dog flow management as we call it.
Speaker 2 00:24:50 And, um, that has been something we've done successfully. So we produced about 340 dogs. We bred about 340 dogs and we served about 136 students. So we still have, um, a number of dogs in the system and, um, the dogs that were fostered out and then started coming back in July when we sort of, we were always in limited operations mode. We never shut down. We had about more than half. Our staff was working full time. Many of our staff were working part-time. They were supporting our breeding station, supporting our puppies that were already born or in, in, in gestation or in vitro, or, um, and then relaying the puppies out to our, um, puppy raiser families throughout New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, and Pennsylvania. So we have 39 puppy clubs, uh, in these States and they all worked, but they had to adapt their strategies to either virtual meetings initially, or then outdoor or socially distanced meetings.
Speaker 2 00:25:52 And all of those protocols were put in place. And, um, our instructors, although they were idled from being able to instruct on until dogs started coming back in and in early July, they did a lot of work helping with the puppy relays. And they, they actually did also some community fundraising for food banks and the likes of everyone kept busy. Some of our staff foster dogs at home themselves. And, um, when we were ready to, we did a lot of work of course, to comply with our pandemic plan, meets all of the CDC and public health authority standards for deep cleaning and for social distancing and mask wearing. And we had to really think through how to re envision and adapt our program of training before we invited students back. And the way we have done that is with currently a smaller class size where we normally do a class size of between 20 and 24 students. Right now, we've been doing classes of 10 and 12 students. And, um, we've been using a higher student to instructor ratio as well. So those are,
Speaker 1 00:27:00 How has, how has this effect, I mean, there's some hugs went out all later, um, and hopefully they were able to do some of the training, uh, during that time, as far as practicing for the dogs. I know how important that is, but how did it affect when, um, getting put out at a later time, did you find that this was any different?
Speaker 2 00:27:26 Surprisingly, we were pleasantly surprised that the, those extra few months of maturity, if you will, among the dogs, um, really helped. And many of the dogs, when they came back from foster, we thought there would be a, uh, a long lead time of retraining them and refreshing their skills. But we were pleasantly surprised by how quick and smart these dogs were and how little they had lost. So, um, we were pleasantly surprised by those extra couple months. Didn't seem to, certainly in some cases, dogs might've developed, um, you know, uh, health or digestion problem or had anxiety. And those dogs weren't able to continue with the program, but many of our dogs were none the worse for it. And in some cases more mature at the time they came back when they were, instead of being 16 months old, they might've been two years old, but they're still very young dogs and very, very, um, you know, much, um, appropriate guide dogs.
Speaker 1 00:28:24 Yes. Um, I am curious about something I know, uh, you guys still do in fact in my class before. Thank goodness I, I got out before COVID a little while before COVID right. Um, there, there were a number of German shepherds and, um, probably actually the most that I've seen in a class, it was really fun to see that, um, I know some schools have dropped Shabbat bird of training and working with them. What is different? Do you feel that you guys do to make them a success?
Speaker 2 00:29:04 All right, well, this is an area I could probably rely more on, um, one of our instructor trainers to talk about, but I do know that, um, because we specialize in shepherds, we are, we believe we are really good at training shepherds and that expertise exists within our guide dog mobility instructors. Um, a lot of people come to us because, um, they want a stronger dog, a, um, a dog, um, that, uh, you know, meets their needs, that they might be a taller person and they want, uh, uh, a larger dog. Uh, some people like the optics of shepherd for protection. Um, and you know, whether it's in many women, in fact, even like shepherds for that reason. Um, but a lot of men like shepherds, uh, I think there's maybe just a traditional sense there that that's a more traditional dog. So we have, um, you know, continued to, and we spent so much, we've invested so much in our breeding program of our shepherds, um, to, you know, read out the hip dysplasia and, um, you know, minimize the anxiety that shepherds sometimes are known for, um, in their, in their behavior. And, um, so we're, we're very confident that our shepherd program, you know, it will go strong for long into the future.
Speaker 1 00:30:24 And just to be clear to people who are listening, that the dogs are not trained to protect, but, you know, usually when you're sitting there waiting for a bus and you have your shepherd between your knees, you're by your side, nobody messes with a girl on her shepherd. That's what I've found anyway. Um, so you have made some changes. You talked about your class sizes being smaller. Are you doing out of now or are you kind of doing students just in that state of New Jersey?
Speaker 2 00:31:02 We had our first three or four classes. We're now on our fourth class, since we reopened the first two were almost exclusively, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, or States, you know, in the surrounding area where people could drive from and which weren't quarantined, um, to come into from the state or, you know, coming into the state of New Jersey, it's gotten harder and harder to fill classes as we've had to go beyond that. And where, so right now several students have decided that they really need to get a dog and they can't wait any longer. So they will come in and make an arrangement to quarantine in New Jersey for the 14 days before coming into our class. So they can safely come onto campus and live in a dorm. And, um, with all the social distancing and other protocols we have in place, they can get their dog. And so right now we have folks from, from farther a field that have done that and have figured out a way to come in and quarantine with friends or even in a hotel room. Um, and we were supporting them in that, um, so that we can continue to work with them. We are, we have decided that for the January class, we are going to postpone that class because we can anticipate the spike that might occur from the holidays to be able to plan ahead
Speaker 1 00:32:20 And fortunate for everyone. Um, I am curious because I think that, I mean, there's so much that goes into this. I, where do you see this? As far as getting back to being able to just take in students? Um, I presume it depends on how quickly things open and think it'll take till the vaccine comes
Speaker 2 00:32:50 Well, I think certainly, you know, vaccines and, um, when we get to a place where we're not sure what the new normal will be, we've been doing a lot of thinking about, you know, we certainly been tested this year and, and risen to the challenges and, and embrace the uncertainties and gone with the smaller class size, a social distancing. And, and if you know our program, Sam, you know that every day you travel from Memphis to downtown Marsh. Now we only have one student per van, uh, as opposed to whole van students and their dogs. So you have to think about every aspect of the program and how to socially distance and our downtown training center, which is a leased facility, um, has been closed by our landlord. So we use it as a locus of, um, you know, a base of operations downtown. And yet we really have to use it more as a base now from the exterior of the building.
Speaker 2 00:33:45 And, um, so we've had to make a lot of changes and adaptations that we hope we'll be able to go back to at least a new normal, if not the old normal, but we are ready. And we, we feel that we can adapt resiliently and, um, you know, w we're not sure what the future holds, but I know that this organization, you know, has always evolved and, and change with time as well as has been constant with time. I know seeing, I, um, you know, has also been kind of a, a bastion of constancy and we will try to balance that, you know, and, and what makes our program great. And at the same time, you know, try to be as visionary as possible about what the future holds
Speaker 1 00:34:28 When you are in like, just general meetings or are places where the public comes up to you, what is the one thing that they most bring to your attention? Like, wow, that's just so amazing that that dog can blank,
Speaker 2 00:34:45 Right. I think for the public, it's perhaps almost an exaggerated sense of what do we know as a guide dog handler, you really are the pilot, you're the navigator and the dog is your copilot and you're in charge. And so certainly the public is enthralled by the concept of intelligent disobedience. The fact that, you know, once you say forward, that dog still has to, once it steps off the curb, it has to decide, is that, is that truck coming too fast? Should I intelligently disobey, you know, my handler. And so that is an amazing part of what dogs are capable of doing. And yet we know that, you know, the decision to go forward really. And the, the sense of awareness that you have as the handler is, is the most important thing. And your ability to understand your own and perceive, you know, uh, what's happening around you and be situationally aware is probably the most important thing, but the dogs are amazing. I've had students tell me, you know, that they tripped on a crack in the sidewalk the first day they had their new dog and the next day that dog stopped them at that crack, you made them stop remembered and remembered that I, my, my human, my brand new human needs to be made aware of this crack after just one, you know? So you hear those things and you think, wow, is there something more we don't understand about the donut?
Speaker 1 00:36:17 Are there any dual trained dogs? You know, some schools are, they play around a little bit with some dual training, if they have somebody in a wheelchair, or if they have somebody that's a little hard of hearing, uh, epilepsy dogs. Is there any thoughts that you guys may do that along the way, or do you do link with any other schools to kind of do that?
Speaker 2 00:36:40 We do not currently train dogs for other disciplines because we feel, uh, you know, that dog training is really unique and complicated. The guide dog training is so unique and complicated in itself. We really prefer to Excel at that one type of training and not have really any mission creep. Um, and so we don't have any current plans to incorporate dual training. However, we do work a lot with other organizations and when our dogs don't make our program, so, you know, six out of 10 of our dogs will not qualify as guides. And, um, you know, I always people say, wow, that doesn't sound like very good statistics, six out of 10. But when you think about it, if this is the highest calling to God, human, among service dogs, task, train, service dogs, this is like being in the green Baret or the army special forces or the, you know, Navy seals only six out of 10 of those people make it as well.
Speaker 2 00:37:34 It's a tough job, and you have to be able to step off that curve with, with someone's life in your hands. So when dogs, um, don't make it here, we have what we call career change dogs. Um, if they're not adopted back by the family that raised them, um, then they will go on to oftentimes become detection, dogs, or therapy, dogs, or other types of emotional support animals, or, um, psychological support animals. Many of our puppy raisers. If they get a dog back, we didn't make our program. They know they still have a very special dog who can change people's lives. And so they enroll them in therapy, dog programs and things,
Speaker 1 00:38:14 But you're not opposed to do all train inspires. Like let's say somebody goes to, they have a guide dog, and they're like, you know, I wonder if I can get them to be able to sense help me with my diabetes. Um, do you feel like that's asking too much, or do you think if the dog is up to it, raise the bar? I would have to
Speaker 2 00:38:36 Honestly say that I don't know the answer to that, Sam, I'm sorry. I'd have to really talk to our instructor trainers, but I know that in our case, we focus solely on making sure that the dog can navigate as a guide, as best as possible. And I can, I can certainly imagine a dog being able to multitask, but, um, you know, we're also careful. We want to introduce appropriate technology as a, as an assistive aid to people. And some people do navigate with, um, you know, voice actuator and GPS and the, like, we also want to make sure that it's done in a way that compliments and doesn't take away from the guide dogs, really main purpose and skill.
Speaker 1 00:39:19 We've talked a little bit about the trainer, uh, talk about their job basically, and how they do it, what they do, what they're responsible for and how long it takes them.
Speaker 2 00:39:31 These are really incredible people who have to have a, really a combined knowledge of dog training, dog behavior, and also, um, really special needs instruction, if you will, in the sense that they, um, have a, so I'll tell you how the program works. It's a three-year, uh, instructor education program that they start out really working largely in our kennels and understanding dogs and dog behavior and supporting and shadowing our instructors on the job. And that's called an instructor assistant. And after about a year of doing that, they become an apprentice instructor and they start to really learn more about dog training, dog behavior. They study, um, dog behavior and they shadow more classes. And then they do two or three cycles of education with tests in dog behavior. And at the same time, they are part of a team, um, of an, of instructors led by a senior manager.
Speaker 2 00:40:31 And they're learning from that senior manager and from their fellow instructors. And then in the later cycles of the program, they actually learn about the eye and eye diseases. And they take part in a program that was designed by the Hadley school for the blind and Hadley Massachusetts. And this is a fairly rigorous curriculum with tests that they have to pass in order to go from apprentice to associate instructor and as associate instructor, they continue to study the Hadley program and they, they take a test under blindfold, um, with a dog so that they really can experience. And actually they spend each instructor before they graduate to a full instructor, has to spend a week under blindfold with a class. And so they completely immersed themselves in the experience of one of our students. And then, um, they have to do six, they have to participate in six, um, classes after they become an associate instructor after which they graduate to instructor. So one of the, the silver linings of this COVID period is the program is so rigorous. It was often hard to get to that goal, align a full instructor with all of the bookwork and all of the exams and the like, but this time afforded us the opportunity to graduate five people to full instructor about that.
Speaker 1 00:41:56 What do you feel sets your school apart from other schools?
Speaker 2 00:42:02 Well, I think that I will pick one thing. I think there's more than one, but I will pick one. And that is that, um, we, um, confer a complete ownership of the dog on the student when they graduate our program. So when they leave together to take on the world, that dog is there's 100%. And we believe from the very beginning of the scene high, that that speaks to really the dignity and independence that we want to this part of the philosophy of our program. Um, there are other schools that have different approaches. We don't, um, disparage those approaches that sometimes involve partial ownership or eventual ownership. And, um, they may work, you know, for those schools, but we often hear from our students that what they like best is the responsibility and the, um, dignity that comes from full ownership of the dog. And that means that we can't intercede to take the dog back. If we feel they haven't been working the dog adequately, or if there's some mismatch, we will support them. If they call us voluntarily, we will make a home visit. We will, um, exchange out a dog if they're really having a severe problem and they can't sustain the partnership. And that's part of our lifetime service and support to our students.
Speaker 1 00:43:23 Is it hard for you though, as someone looking from the other side, if you know that some of this is because of how the handler is doing things, that things aren't going so well not to be able to interfere.
Speaker 2 00:43:39 I, I would guess it, it might be, but, um, we really want to hold fast to the, the, the sense, I mean, we will encourage people to come in and replace, or, um, if someone, um, in the rare instance that someone really is not able to handle a dog, we will, in some cases say, we, we would not serve you again, you know, um, and replacing a dog. Um, but we generally try to help work the situation, fix the situation, support the person, um, who, you know, and it goes back to our application criteria. We generally try to vet the person as well as we can in terms of their navigation and, um, orientation and mobility skills for entering the program. But things can change in someone's life. And, you know, they not be able to continue with their dog if they've had a health setback or remedy.
Speaker 1 00:44:39 So this is so changed how your school and other schools that are doing this type of work has had to do things. Um, I presume that once a vaccine comes into play, things will go back more to some kind of a quote, normal. Uh, what do you foresee, or what have you guys done that you think won't go back to normal? What will be a new thing that you found that works better or differently that you'll continue to do forward?
Speaker 2 00:45:15 Well, an interesting challenge for us is we really like the two to one ratio and the smaller class size that we've developed to get us through the pandemic. And yet, if we were to continue that when things get back to a post pandemic world, we have to figure out a way to do that because we aren't able to serve as many students. And so our waiting list growing and the demand is still there. So that's one of the dilemmas we really need to come up with a solution for, but right now we're really currently focused on keeping the class experience as safe as possible, right. During COVID. And a lot of those discussions haven't happened, although we are learning from these adaptations and thinking ahead to how we will, um, you know, make some of them permanent or, or adapt to, um, you know, uh, a new, a new reality. Um, but, um, yeah, there's a lot we're learning and, um, probably will, the whole world will never go back to the way it was.
Speaker 1 00:46:15 I, I wonder, you know, it'll be a very interesting thing to see what goes back and what never does again, right.
Speaker 2 00:46:23 We are anxious to get back to being able to do more field service in the States where we're currently quarantined from, or which, which have high infection rates. One of the things we have been doing more of is home turnovers, which is the alternative to coming to class where we do a one-on-one training for the whole time, with someone in their home community, those are most expensive and the least efficient, excuse me. And they don't afford the class experience and this,
Speaker 1 00:46:54 And I actually, I can speak to that, um, because I have done it both ways. I did it when I had to do it. And it felt like that was the appropriate thing for me to do is do a home training and it is harder. It people think why you're so lucky you get to train at home. Well, no, I mean, yes, I am lucky that I got to train at home, but, uh, there are so many things that go into it, you know, for, I realized very quickly, if something goes wrong with that dog, that's what you have. You have that dog, there is no quick change out. Oh, we have another, you know, we'll try this one. Um, you, it is what you have and you either work with it or it goes back. And then who knows how long it will take
Speaker 2 00:47:39 A wonderful food on the scene.
Speaker 1 00:47:41 That's right. That just meant I lost more weight. But, uh, and, and there is something to be said for the class experience. You meet friends, I really have valued some of the relationships that I've met through class, and you don't get to do that if you're at home. The other thing that I will say too, is, uh, in class, my responsibility was my dog at home. Your responsibility is your dog, your chores, your cooking, your family, your, if you have people calling on you for work, you do try to take the time out to train, but there's always things pulling on you. And it is not the same. And it is actually more stressful. I found than if I would have just gone to school and just had that one responsibility and been all to be fed every day and have my room cleaned every day.
Speaker 2 00:48:38 We often hear students say that it's sort of one part bootcamp and one part vacation or retreat at the scene because you're fully immersed and you have no you're in a bubble. And that's how you know, we correct.
Speaker 1 00:48:50 That's really true. That's really true. Is there any advice you'd give somebody who is working their dog right now, because I think it is a hard time for guides working their dogs. Yeah. Things have changed so much. If you could say anything to them, what would it be?
Speaker 2 00:49:09 Sure. Well, I think it's a few things. One is we really are grateful for and we appreciate the patients are so many of our grads who've been waiting to come back for dogs. So, um, we really, you know, appreciate that and want to serve them as soon as we can. Um, but I think it's important for grads who find themselves at home more than usual to really feel that can work their dog and should, you know, keep the dogs skills sharp. Uh, even though you may not be commuting to work or the like, um, you know, during, or have unexpected downtime, um, keep the dogs from getting bored and keep their training sharp. Um, the other thing we found and we found ourselves really, um, in the middle of a media campaign to help sighted people understand the challenges of social distancing
Speaker 1 00:49:56 Thing.
Speaker 2 00:49:57 Yeah. So we've been doing a lot of work, um, through Melissa almond, our, um, senior specialist for advocacy and government relations here at the seeing eye and, uh, helping people with access issues and helping also people to understand their rights and to make sure that, you know, none of the restrictions put in place during the pandemic give business owners the legal right to deny access, to seeing eye dogs. ADA is still, um, relevant obviously. And if enforced and, um, so we've, we have had more calls from grads who were denied access due to distance.
Speaker 1 00:50:36 Wow. I would not have thought, um, I don't work my dog inside if I can help it. I have found that it's too intrusive. People are already intrusive enough for sneak pets and see, I don't want people it's especially important now that I don't want people touching my dog. And so she gets outside of work and she gets not much inside work, unfortunately, because I feel like I can't trust, you know, that I'm not going to always know when somebody does it. I wonder I'm totally unreasonable, but has there been any sense of, Hey, we should teach the dogs social distancing. I don't know how you do that, but
Speaker 2 00:51:18 I originally thought naively because I'm not an instructor that that would be easy, but we, we don't want to confuse the dogs in terms of what they're expected to do to navigate around with checks. And, um, if, if we make them stop on a blue sky blue square or blue circle, um, that would be probably confusing to the dogs I'm told by our, our GDM eyes, our instructors. And so we're really more focused on asking the sighted community to be verbal, to tell us, you know, where the line is to help us understand, uh, you know, if you could stop there please, or, or you're too close to me. And so we've really Melissa almond, who is our advocacy specialist is very willing to talk to you. Um, and she's at an
[email protected]. If you have any questions about, um, you know, navigating or, or social distancing in this COVID era or how to handle interference,
Speaker 1 00:52:16 How can people find out more about your school and seeing high dogs?
Speaker 2 00:52:20 Sure. Well, we are at of course, www.cni.org, and, uh, we have an accessible, uh, website and you can find lots of information on our history or programs, our application process. And, um, anything you, you would like to know about seeing, I, you can also call our, um, our, uh, Angela McTier, who's our director of admissions here at the seeing eye and learn more about, um, how to qualify to come to the, into the program and get on the waiting list. And, um, we welcome folks who really want to take that next measure, um, of, you know, using their abilities and gaining the independence. They want to continue to move forward in the world.
Speaker 1 00:53:11 Well, Glen, I really appreciate you doing this, uh, with us and good luck with everything. And I hope I don't have to go back for a while until at least it's all this is straightened out. Um,
Speaker 2 00:53:23 Thank you, Sam. It's an honor to speak to a seeing
Speaker 1 00:53:26 I graduate into the first time we've really met. So thank you very, very much. Um, good luck with everything. And I know you guys will stay strong. Very good. Have a great day. One more thing. Uh, Charlene, was there anything you wanted to ask? You guys did a good job covering it. Okay. Thank you, Glen. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Charlene. This is disability and progress abuses expressed on this show are not necessarily those of campy I or its board of directors. My name is Sam I'm the host of this show. Charlene doll is my research team. We were speaking about the CNI school with Glenn Hoagland. Glenn is the president and CEO of the CNI. This is KPI 90.3 FM Minneapolis and kpi.org. Check out our podcasts and our wonderful app on the iPhone store or your Android store. You can also be on my email list by emailing
[email protected]. Thank you so much for listening tonight.
Speaker 3 00:54:37 <inaudible>.
