Disability and Progress- December 5, 2024- Blind Golf!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI. Org. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Sam Jasmine. [00:00:08] Speaker C: And I'm Charlene Dahl. [00:00:10] Speaker B: And we want to thank you for your time and listening to us and pledging throughout the year. It was Giving Tuesday, and if you didn't give, you still have time. So please feel free to go to kfai.org and give what you can. We take donations anytime. And thank you again for your support. Greetings and thank you for joining Disability and Progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Thanks so much for tuning in. Charlene Dahl is my PR Research person. Hello, Charlene. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Good evening, everybody. [00:01:44] Speaker B: And this week for December 5th, is that what we're at? We have with us Judy Messina and Kurt Jones. They are two golfers with various eye conditions that are going to be talking about blind golfing and they're going to tell us all about what that is. Hello, you guys. [00:02:08] Speaker C: Hi, Sam. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Hi. [00:02:10] Speaker A: Hey, Sam. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Hey, thanks so much for joining me. And I'm sure you guys are somewhere keeping warm. We know it's the Minnesota winner. [00:02:20] Speaker A: You know, northern, Northern Minnesota. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Now golfing in your living rooms, right? [00:02:26] Speaker C: That is right. [00:02:27] Speaker A: That's right. [00:02:28] Speaker B: That's right. Well, thank you so much. And I want to start out by getting a little bit of your personal story. So can you share how you, you know, first got involved with golf? I'll start with Judy. Ladies first. [00:02:44] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. I started golfing many years ago at first when I had more vision with my family. I still had a visual impairment of star guards and I could see a lot more when I was golfing a bit with them. It was kind of like if I didn't learn to golf, I'd be sitting at home. And I thought, well, I'd rather be out, you know, and try that. So I did that for a while. And then years passed. There's college and everything along the way. And it wasn't until later then my husband and I, we have gone out a bit, had gone out a bit. And then I started checking into blind golf because I was losing more vision. And that's kind of the story. Well, I've got to continue to lose vision. And so I had signed up with the US CGA and really didn't do much with it for a while, to be honest. Kurt will be the first to tell you that. And then he was the nudge I needed to get me to to get out into the tournaments. So that's kind of my story as far as getting into this. [00:03:41] Speaker B: How about you, Kurt? [00:03:44] Speaker A: Well, I had never played golf until I'm say 2018, maybe 2017, I can't remember which, actually, I think was 2018. And a high school friend of mine was up at our place up here in Northern Minnesota, visiting for the week in Perry newest. And him and I had both. [00:04:05] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:04:05] Speaker A: I kind of really how it got brought up, you know, there wasn't much to do. You're sitting around. What. What do you want to do today? Let's go to a driving range just for the heck of it. So we went out there and did pretty good, actually, the first time out. And I got to talk and I said, you know, they have a blind golf, national blind golf tournament every year. We should go back and look it up, see what that's all about. So we went back to my place, got on the computer and looked it up, and realized, holy cow, they have all kinds of tournaments. They have them nationally, internationally, regionally, a ton of tournaments. So we made a call to the president of the organization at that time, who is a good friend of mine now, Dick Pomo, and he got us what we needed to know, you know, whatever we needed to do to join the forms, no paperwork and all this sort of thing. And we joined in our first tournament, and we think was out in Arizona, and that was April. April of 2019. And then we played a couple tournaments. And then. And then Covid hit. And so there was absolutely nothing going on for a long time, for a year. And since then, my wife and I have put on three regional tournaments up here in Northern Minnesota for people around the country. And now we're working on the nationals for next year in the Twin Cities. All right, that's kind of, you know, a long winded answer, but that's how I got there. [00:05:38] Speaker B: So, Judy, I'm interested in your story because you have experience with, obviously, golfing when you had it sounds like a fair amount of vision, and then you were slowly losing it. And how did that change what you did with the game? [00:06:00] Speaker C: Well, most blind golfers really rely on their coach. I have a coach. My husband coaches me, and I really had to rely on that. We had to get our. We're a team, which is true of most people. When you're talking blind golf, your coach is just as important, if not more important than you, because it takes both of you to make it work. And so we had to come up with some systems. I couldn't see the ball on the tee. I couldn't see where it was going to go. Or whatever. So we came up with some methods, with some help from taking some lessons from pros who were really good with us as far as trying to come up with strategies. And we put in a lot of practice, Sam. That's all there is to it. Just to get together, get our team method down, I guess. And we work on it all the time. It never ends. [00:06:50] Speaker B: How does blind golf differ from traditional golf? Talk about, you know, the. In regards to terms and games. [00:07:01] Speaker C: Let's see. Once you can jump in, Kurt, if you want. [00:07:05] Speaker A: You know, other than having a. Other than having a coach, it really doesn't. The scoring is the same. [00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:11] Speaker A: The rules are the same, except in the same. Other than the coach. [00:07:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Well, even. Even that. Now, in real golf, you can. You can ground your club, I think. I'm not sure. But in traps, sand traps, for a long time, you could touch the ground with your club. In the past. In the past, regular golf camp. But other than that, there really isn't much difference. Difference at all, other than. Other than having a coach. [00:07:38] Speaker B: Let's talk about your coach. So you talk about the coach. What role do they play and how do they communicate? I mean, how is that communication done between them and you? [00:07:53] Speaker A: Each one is different. Each player has a different way of doing it. They'll have different, you know, cues, different. You know, a lot of. A lot of golfers don't want a lot of information because it doesn't do a lot of good. It doesn't really matter to me whether there's a sand trap, you know, 100 yards away or not. I can't see it anyway, so it doesn't matter. The coach will help you select your club, you know, suggest which one you might want to use, tell you the distance, you know, from here to there, and basically aim. You. They aim, you know, face, you know, turn to the right, turn to the left a little bit, you know, then they set the club down and away you go. [00:08:40] Speaker C: But if the other thing is. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Go ahead, Sam, go ahead. [00:08:42] Speaker C: I was going to say, you also have to get your system down. At least I have to get a system down for my coach. And I didn't know, like, especially when you're getting closer to the green or if you're pitching and stuff, where do you want that? How far out do you have to swing? Are you going from your ankle or do you want to go as high as your knee up and, you know, that kind of thing. So you do have to develop a system of how hard you're going to hit and how High, you're going to go back and forth from. Maybe you can use a clock face, for instance, from whatever to whatever on a clock. As far as how far you want to hit. I don't know how you do it, Kurt, but we do some of that. [00:09:15] Speaker B: But wouldn't you want to know how far away, like a sand trap or something was? Because it might depend. You might not hit it as far, so you wouldn't land on it, and you'd have more of a chance of swinging over it. You know, the next swing wouldn't want to do that. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Or, you know, so some. Sometimes, you know, a lot of times the coach will try to aim you around it, you know, so you can, you know. You know, like with water. Water is the same way if you got to get over some water, you know, it's like, you know, hit it as hard as you can. Or sometimes you want to just kind of place the ball down by the edge of the water so that your next. Your next stroke, you get over the water. So, yeah, so, you know, I use about, you know, three, four different coaches, mainly Perry, but three or four other coaches, and each one is different, you know, so it takes. It takes time. Each tournament or each time you go out to get used to that particular one. [00:10:19] Speaker C: And I only have had my husband coaching, so when you're asking that question, it's like it becomes an issue of course management. And your coach gets to know how far you can hit with what club. And so it might be such that they lay you up. You might not hit as far to try and get over a situation as you want to get to a certain point, and then use a club that they know you can get over it and get out of trouble. Stay out of trouble, hopefully. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Gotcha. Talk a little bit about the classifications, such as B1, B2, B3. What do they all mean and how is that divided? [00:10:58] Speaker A: B1s are totally blind or basically no usable vision. B2 is a step above that. And that's what Judy, is where you have some vision, but nothing that's going to really do you a lot of good on the golf course. You might be able to see the ball. You might be able to, you know, see the green if you're on it or whatever. B3, you have more vision. And, you know, I know some B3s that can look down the course and see. See a group of trees down there. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Why wouldn't they just golf with everyone else then? [00:11:38] Speaker A: Well, because they can't drive a cart. You know, that's one rule with the organization Fear. And some do. Actually, you know, a lot of golfers do and do go out and play regular golf with folks. I do on occasion. Judy, I'm sure you have. And you know, it's not just you. You know, we don't just stick to playing with other blind folks. It's. You can, you know, a lot of most people go out and play with leagues or whatever in their community. [00:12:08] Speaker B: So is B3 the highest it goes? [00:12:12] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that's kind of a tenuous answer because we're boarding the idea of putting, going to a B4, which is. And I'm not sure you know what that. What that's going to mean yet or not. That's just, we're just going with that idea at this point. But right now It's. It's just 1, 2 and 3. How do you really the only ones that have to wear any kind of dark out glasses or, or anything like that, B1s do. Yeah. [00:12:47] Speaker B: You want to make darn sure they can't see anything, huh? [00:12:50] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Yes. Make sure they can't see a thing. So we have to wear the glasses. [00:12:58] Speaker B: When was blind golf introduced? [00:13:06] Speaker A: It came out of World War II. Veterans that lost their sight during the war, they came out of the. One of the first was a guy named Charlie Boswell. And there was a gentleman out of Duluth, I can't remember his name. Clint Russell maybe, I think. And then there was another one, Joel Lazario. And his daughter is still involved with blind golf. She's very involved with the organization of it. And it started in, like I said, World War II. And it became slowly got built up. When it first started, it was only until about, I'm not sure, the year 2002 or so, it was only B1s, B2s and threes were not allowed in the organization. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:13:52] Speaker A: And. And they realized in order for this to grow, we got it opened up to the visually impaired. Otherwise it's going to disintegrate and just be nothing because there won't be any members left. So I think that was around 2002, 2003, somewhere in there when that, when that happened. [00:14:12] Speaker C: We thank you for that, Kurt. [00:14:15] Speaker B: Oh my. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Thank you. Otherwise we'd be sitting there, sitting there playing golf with nobody. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Are there specific clubs or equipment that's tailored for blind golfers? [00:14:28] Speaker C: No. [00:14:31] Speaker A: We just use regular clubs. [00:14:33] Speaker C: But I think. [00:14:34] Speaker A: I wish there were. [00:14:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I wish there were two. But to Sam, when we were looking, at least when I look at my clubs, I don't know about you Kurt. But when I'm looking at the grips on my clubs, I try and find something that tactual, that I can somehow envision, you know, to feel, like, where my fingers and things should be, if it's my. All my. How my grip should go. Because otherwise, if it's all rounded, you don't know which way the club is sitting. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Right. That's what I was wondering, how you would do that. [00:14:58] Speaker A: I do that whenever I get a new club or mine are all. I have had them all regripped. And when I do that, I ask the people at the golf shop to put a. Put a raised ridge down one side of it so I can feel it when I'm. You know, and then make it. Make sure it's squared up with the head of the club. [00:15:22] Speaker B: And what do they use. What do they use to do that with? [00:15:25] Speaker A: Just the. Just kind of a. I think, like a glue, maybe. I'm not really sure what. What it is. Like a glue that they can, you know, kind of raise it up a little bit. It's not. It's not a lot. If you probably didn't know it was there, you wouldn't notice it. But I know it's there, so I notice it. [00:15:44] Speaker C: You're looking for it. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Right? Right. And then if it's not there, I blame it. That's why I didn't get it. [00:15:49] Speaker C: Then it's Perry. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And that is the other reason you have a coach, too. Someone to blame when you have a love coach. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:15:57] Speaker C: Totally. [00:15:58] Speaker B: I could totally see that. And you'd be really good with that, Kurt. I'm sure of that. So how much, Judy, obviously you can visually do this? Maybe a little bit more. But how much do you guys like to try to visualize or map out a course? Or how much do you want your coach to tell you what it looks like when you're golfing? [00:16:27] Speaker C: I like to have an idea. I mean, when we've looked at tournaments and stuff, we pull up the layout of the golf course first. And I do like the practice sessions you get when you go into a tournament. I will say, the first year at your tournament, Kurt, I was kind of glad when Tom didn't tell me there was a lot of water ahead of me because the ball actually went over it. And I probably would have freaked out at that time if I had known. But, yeah, I mean, now I like more information because now we seem to have had more time working together to try and figure out why we're doing what we're doing. I guess sometimes I guess it doesn't matter though. What about you, Kurt? [00:17:09] Speaker A: I don't know. It varies, I guess, from course to course. We just played the nationals down in Texas and it was a very, very difficult course and I wanted all the information I could get on that one because there was a lot of water and such like that one thing that I would say 98% or more of the golfers use, it's a little audio thing. You clip your hat or your pocket or something and you push it and it will tell you the distance you, where you're, where you're shooting from or hitting from. It'll tell you how far you have to go to the, to the center of the green. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Wait a minute. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Really? [00:17:47] Speaker B: That feels like a, an adaptive thing which we glossed over. So what, what is that and how does that work then? And does it tell you it's about. [00:17:58] Speaker A: The size of a 50 cent piece? Judy? [00:18:02] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not real big. Yeah, it's nice. It just hooks on your visor, your cap, whatever, your belt, whatever you want. [00:18:08] Speaker A: And what does it push it and it'll say. Well, just basically it'll tell you how far you have to go to the green. [00:18:17] Speaker B: How does it know that? [00:18:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [00:18:23] Speaker C: As long as you remember to charge it before you hit the course. Because if you don't, you're not going to get anything. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's about the only, that, that is about the only adaptive advice device, rather adaptive device that, that we use. [00:18:40] Speaker C: But when you get to putting in on the green, you really need your coach and to really. [00:18:44] Speaker A: You don't. It doesn't do you any good there because it's too close to the pin. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:50] Speaker A: And the pins change all the time or the holes change all the time every day where they're at. So this just tells you the distance to the center of the green. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Aha. Okay. [00:19:00] Speaker A: The tee box or. [00:19:02] Speaker B: And it knows it because it must have the green in there that it can see the map. [00:19:08] Speaker A: Something I'm, you know, that's above my pay levels. I'm not sure how it works. [00:19:17] Speaker B: So talk a little bit about how you line your shots up or measure distance. [00:19:27] Speaker C: Well, lining the shots up, we kind of first check and see my practice time every now and then, you know, you find that you have your own little, what I call, foibles. And from time to time I might be hitting a little more right or whatever. So we've kind of got it figured out if I'm hitting a little more one direction, how I need to Turn my body differently or move my move further over on the tee box to have it go where I really am hoping it'll go. So we kind of work that out together. I personally, I don't know about you, Kurt. I have a certain tee that I like to use that's. [00:20:00] Speaker B: It only goes into the brawl. I like that. [00:20:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But it only goes into a certain point. So we know that every time that ball's gonna be on there, that when I do my practice swing on the tee, I need to hear that tee hit without a ball on it to know where I'm coming down with my swing. And so we work together that way. Kurt will tell you I'm a far better tee shot practicer than I am with the ball on the tee. [00:20:29] Speaker A: That's the difference between a lot of golfers, too. A lot of them will go in and they'll take 6, 7, 8 practice swings or. I don't do that. I'll just. Maybe I'll take one. [00:20:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:42] Speaker A: I don't know if you're. Depending how well we're playing that day, you know, and that's. That's one thing about golf, too. And that whether it's blind golf or. Or, you know, regular golf is if you're in a tournament, you know, you can. You can have the game of your life the first day and think, I got this thing lit. I'm gonna come out tomorrow, and I'm gonna just take this tournament, and you come out the next day, and you just. Everything. Everything that can go wrong will go wrong. And so that. That's the. [00:21:10] Speaker B: I suppose if they move the holes right there. [00:21:13] Speaker A: Well, they do, but. But, you know, so much of it depends. A lot of, you know, depends on the weather and the wind. I mean, if it's. I hated it. If I hate it, if it's real windy, because, you know, sure, Sam. You know, this wind is just audio. Audio fog, dust. [00:21:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:21:31] Speaker A: You know, it's just. It can distract you, and then it can hold your shots up, too, if you're hitting into the wind. [00:21:38] Speaker B: So talk a little bit about some of your biggest challenges that you face as a blind golfer. Wind is one of them. Kurt, is there others? [00:21:54] Speaker A: I don't like for the golfers. I know a lot of them have a hard time with coaches, getting coaches. That's. That's the hardest thing. And I think in. In blind golf, I mean, I'm really lucky. I have, you know, like I said, three or four different people that I can. If one can't go to A tournament. I can. I have other ones. Whereas a lot of people don't have that luxury. They will, you know, they. A lot of times they also go to a tournament, and whoever's hosting the tournament, the tournament director will have to find them or find them a coach, which I think would be really hard because they don't know how. They've never worked with them other than that. You know, what's frustrating sometimes is, okay, I want to go play golf today, but there's no one to go with you. As for a coach or anything like that. Whereas your regular sighted golfer can just go out on the go. You know, go to the golf course and go out and played nine holes by himself if he wants to. That's one of the biggest challenges. [00:22:54] Speaker B: How about you, Judy? [00:22:57] Speaker C: I think to piggyback sometimes when we are down here trying to go on a local course, golf is a very busy sport for a lot of people. So you're trying to find a time when it's not so busy where they'll let you on because there's a pace of play you got to keep up with. And so on days like that, Tom and I will, oftentimes, if we want to go 18 holes or whatever on a longer course, then we'll just. We'll do best ball throughout just to keep the pace moving. And we've just come to terms. We've just come to terms with at least it's good practice because you're on a long course and you're using all your clubs. It doesn't matter if, you know you're both golfing a full round, but at least we can then be out there and keep the pace moving and enjoy it that way. So that would be one thing. Sand is my other thing. I'm not a fan of sand, but I'm trying to conquer it. It's a tough one to know where your club is going to come down. I think in sand. You know, is there a difference? [00:23:59] Speaker A: They could call. Basements are so deep sometimes. [00:24:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:24:02] Speaker C: Well, maybe Sam, if you can, if you want a little humor here. My first tournament at Kurtz, one tournament, I was about to swing my club when a dog came running across the course at me. [00:24:15] Speaker B: So it's like, oh, my God. Wow. [00:24:20] Speaker C: I wasn't expecting that. Let's just say that I bet one. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Of my favorites was we were at. We were. We were out in Arizona playing just for the fun of it a couple of years ago. And we. I hit. We looked up and we saw coyotes sitting out on the golf course about 70 yards away. And we were. We thought it might have been a statue. It wasn't moving. And I. We went for it. I hit the. Hit the ball and nailed him right in the. Right in the shoulder. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Oh, cruel, cruel, terrible person you. [00:24:52] Speaker A: Will you say some squirrels lies because he was stalking a squirrel. [00:24:55] Speaker B: Oh, I. I would have voted for the coyote. I'm sorry. I have. I have issues with squirrel. Squirrels. So I'm wondering, are the weather conditions, like, do they hold up the same as in a traditional golf game or are they more sensitive to, you know, blind people with weather conditions with, like a tournament or something? [00:25:23] Speaker C: No, it's the same. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Same thing, huh? [00:25:27] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. If it's raining or if there's a storm, they'll call you off like your regular. Like regular all golfers. Or if it's raining, a lot of times they'll say, well, you know, if it's rain, you can't take the golf. Golf carts onto the course. You gotta stay on the cart, on the cart path. So then you park. Well, park the cart. And then you gotta maybe walk, you know, 50 yards to get to your ball every. Every shot. And a lot of times you're sloshing through the wet grass. [00:26:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Sort of thing. [00:26:01] Speaker C: So. [00:26:01] Speaker A: No, they don't. They don't. They don't change it because. Because of your visual ability. [00:26:06] Speaker C: No, it's the full golf experience. [00:26:09] Speaker B: What do you find most rewarding about the sport? [00:26:14] Speaker A: Getting the ball in the hole. [00:26:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Hearing that sound, but being able to just do it. Being able to get out with other people and do what other people are doing and being social during and after it. It's fun afterwards, too, with everybody. It feels a sense of accomplishment, I think. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah. About three years ago. Three, four years ago. Every year, my cousins and my brothers would hold a day of golf in our home community of Little Falls. And I never went because I didn't play golf. After I started playing golf, I went to it for the first time, and it was great playing with relatives and it was a family thing. So it's a total social thing. That's one thing I love about the USBGA is, you know, nobody gives you guff because you didn't play well or you played too slow or whatever. You go up and you play your game and you come in and you hang around the clubhouse and you talk and you tell some lies and, you. [00:27:21] Speaker C: Know. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Wow, okay, then. Now I know what to look forward to. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Yep, there you go. [00:27:31] Speaker B: So obviously there are specific leagues and tournaments for blind golfers. What's the next tournament that's coming up and how does that work? [00:27:45] Speaker A: The next one is in May down in Marietta, Georgia. It's the US Open. And that one brings golfers in from around, not just the United States, but Ireland and Canada and. Boy, where else? Germany, I think, and Scotland. Africa. [00:28:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:09] Speaker A: And I haven't been to that for quite a few years. I'm gonna hopefully go this year. [00:28:14] Speaker B: Okay, and so how does that work? Then you go and it's how many days? [00:28:22] Speaker A: Three days. All tournaments have a practice round the first time, first day, or you just go out and get used to the course and you play as much as you want. If you want to play nine holes, that's what you play. If you want to play all 18, and then the next day it's next, it's a. It's a two day course or two day tournament after that. All of them are usually two day tournaments with a combined score of both days. [00:28:47] Speaker C: And then there's. Maybe you're gonna. Maybe we'll get into that too. But the Stableford versus stroke play. Kurt, probably. [00:28:53] Speaker B: What is that? [00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Who wants to try to explain it? [00:28:59] Speaker C: Because she was asking about the tournament. I thought we better share the tournament golf. [00:29:03] Speaker B: I mean, how does that work? How do you. [00:29:07] Speaker A: There's two forms of scoring in blind golf. Us in. Yeah, I'm blind golf, it's Stableford. And then there's stroke play that your better golfers will play. Stroke Curtin. [00:29:20] Speaker C: I don't do that. [00:29:21] Speaker A: No, we play stable first. And that is to make it. I'm trying to make this simple is you have so many shots per hole to get the ball in. And if you don't get it and you just pick up and you put down a zero on your. On your card. And in Stableford, your goal is to get a higher score versus a low score. And stroke play is. If you've got any golfers listening, you realize, you know, you want to get as low a score as possible. Stable for you want a high score. You get so many points depending on how many shots it took to get the ball into the hole. And usually you have eight shots to get it in. And if you don't, then you just. Then you just pick up the ball and go to the next hole and you write down to zero on your card. [00:30:10] Speaker B: I want to talk about handicaps and how you get one. And because there are qualifications to getting in to be able to apply to the Blind Golf association or whatever you want to call yourselves. Right. Correct Me with the wording. So how do you do that? [00:30:33] Speaker A: How do you get in? How do you join? [00:30:36] Speaker B: Well, yeah, there's. Yes, how do you join? You can't just walk up and pay 50 bucks and say hey, I want to be in it, right? [00:30:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker B: So what happens. [00:30:47] Speaker A: You it's a hundred dollars a year to be is your membership or your dues. And when you first start you in order to play in any tournaments you need to develop a handicap. And in order to do that you gotta go out and play three 18 round, 18 hole games courses, rounds of golf. Thank you. Three scores of 18 holes and you gotta play that stable, not stable for stroke. Once you get, once you get your three scores that then you submit them. Someone develops your handicap and or figures it out. And don't ask me how they do that because I don't know. I'm not a handicap expert at all. And then you are, you are basically in. And once you get, oh, and you got to get a form from me from your eye doctor saying what your vision acuity is and then they will place you in a category one, two or three and then you're free to go play tournaments as long as you pay the entry fees for the tournament. [00:32:04] Speaker B: So can you actually choose to play stroke or Stableford once you have your handicap or. [00:32:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Or do they put you in? [00:32:12] Speaker A: Okay, they, you can, but they will encourage say you have, if you have a real high handicap at handicap and you've never played in a tournament or played golf, they're gonna really, really, really insist you play stable for it because you'll frustrate yourself to no end if you go out and play stroke because you'll be out there literally all day. And I'm serious, you'll be out because once you, if you're, if you're playing stroke, you can't pick up. You got to play that hole out. No matter if it takes you five shots or 15 shots, you got to play that hole out till you get the ball in the cup and then you'll just frustrate yourself. So I highly encourage anybody that's just starting out play Stableford. [00:32:53] Speaker C: And I would suggest to somebody doing it that when they're trying to establish a handicap, I would strongly recommend doing a course that's a longer course because to do a simple, I don't mean simple, but a par three, those holes play differently. And then when you get out to these tournaments, they're on full out, you know, regular courses. So if you go on a shorter course, easier to play, I Think you pay the price later when you go to the. Yeah, you do. [00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And you can't. You can't use a par three course for. To develop your handicap, you gotta have to be a regular nine hole. Nine, 18. You can know what you can do, too, though. You can go out and play, say, two nine hole. [00:33:37] Speaker C: Yep. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Days. They do nine holes one day and nine holes the next day and add those two scores together and that counts as one of your scores. You don't have to go out and play 18 right away. [00:33:51] Speaker B: So what do you think, or is there anything that you feel that golf courses could do to be more accessible for blind golfers? Hmm. [00:34:04] Speaker A: I've never thought about it. [00:34:07] Speaker C: I haven't either that way. Because so much of it's just played the way any golfer would play. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I would prefer that for playing golf, though. This is just my own thing to have a course that's just loaded with water during a tournament every hole. That's a tough deal, I think. I don't know about you, Kurt, but I think. I wish that there would be quite so much water sometimes on some of the courses. But I don't know the courses. [00:34:34] Speaker A: You lose a lot of golf balls. [00:34:36] Speaker C: You do, but I don't know that courses could do that much more. I mean, as long as they. Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice. As long as they're understanding of you're coming in as a blind golfer and then just trying to find, you know, a time, if there's a quieter time to come in and golf, that would be good to know, but I think I've had good luck. What about you, Kurt? [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I was thinking of the time I was down playing the nationals down in Florida, and it was surrounded by water. [00:35:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:06] Speaker A: And a friend of both of mine and Judy's, Sheila Drummond, we were playing together just for a practice round, and we both hit the ball and went into the water. Just as our balls hit the water, an alligator popped. [00:35:17] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. Wow. Well, there was lunch for the alligator. I guess they could digest that we. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Didn'T go in after the balls. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Well, what is. What's been your guys's experience with, like, when you get on a golf course, to quote sighted golfers that may have seen. Never seen a blind golfer before. What's been your experience with how they react generally? [00:35:50] Speaker A: Pretty well. [00:35:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:52] Speaker A: I've never really ran into anybody that's been a jerk at us to playing too slow. They're rather kind of impressed, actually. I think we're not up There to impress anybody so much. But as more people are kind of, wow, how do you do that? And same as you, basically. [00:36:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we can have all the same bad habits they have, unfortunately. But no, I mean, it's a pretty level playing field that way. When you get out there, and I think when you have. Between you and your coach and if you have a routine that you follow and kind of stick to your routine, and when you get frustrated, sometimes that goes off the rails a little bit. But to really practice with a routine in mind and then stick with it when you get out there. Don't you think, Kurt? I don't know. [00:36:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, most. Most of us move along at a pretty good clip. [00:36:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:48] Speaker A: We don't blow the game up at all. [00:36:50] Speaker C: Yep. Yep. And, you know, that would irritate sighted golfers if we were holding up the golf, that's for sure. So that's. [00:36:57] Speaker A: That's why it irritates me when it gets held up. It irritates me if I'm held up. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll leave that one alone, Kurt. I wonder what are some of the misconceptions about blind golf or blind people golfing? [00:37:14] Speaker A: I've always had heard people want to know if the ball beeps. [00:37:18] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Like, you know, in. In beat baseball, are they. The ball beep? Oh, no. Why would it. Yeah, that's kind of the main one. I think that I've. I've. I've. I've heard from people. [00:37:34] Speaker C: I think it's more questions like, well, how do you know? Yeah, I think it's more questions like, well, how do you know where your ball is going? Or how do you. This or that? And again, that's when your coach. Your coach is really valuable. So if they can learn the importance of the coach, then they'll know why we're able to play golf. [00:37:50] Speaker B: So I feel like this could scare people, thinking, well, I'd love to do this, but I could never find a coach. So how can you. I mean, it feels like you'd have to kind of. How do you have somebody find a coach? Or how can somebody find a coach? Or how do you help them find a coach? Because it is a real volunteer thing that somebody does to give their time, which, you know, plenty of people do it. But, you know, some people may vary to. If they want to be picking up balls all day from someone. [00:38:25] Speaker A: I would, you know, I would if I were starting out again and I didn't know anybody that played. You know, like I said, I've lucked out. With that I would, you know, you can check with the golf. You go to a golf course and the first time. That's why I recommend anybody that starts off playing golf anyway, go to a golf course and get some lessons from a pro. And you know, you know, asking your community, your church, your whatever organizations you might belong to. [00:38:56] Speaker C: Yep. [00:38:57] Speaker A: You know, if there's anybody that would be interested in going out, you know, the problem is finding someone that's willing, if you want to go to a tournament that's willing, willing or can, you know, travel, take the time to travel because it's a, you know, when you go to a tournament, it's a five day excursion by time you fly out and fly back and everything else. [00:39:18] Speaker B: So I wonder, like you talk about getting help with a professional, do they know how to help a blind person or what help a blind person would need or how do you instruct them? Then. [00:39:36] Speaker A: I myself, I'll speak for myself, lucked out because when I first started, I went into the local golf course there and I talked to the pro and I said, hey, would you be willing to give me some lessons? And he said he would and you know, said, okay, I'll come back next week. We set up an appointment and meantime he went on the USB GA webs, the USBA website, which is USB golf.com and he, you know, learned about go blind golf. And so by the time I came in a week or so later and we, him and I become good friends now, he, you know, got some pointers on how to teach it and how to, you know, how to work with a blind person. [00:40:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean that is a good website. And I think probably when you're working with a professional, I was lucky in one sense because one of the people that I've used for lessons I've been blessed with, he had vision background. So how lucky can you be there? You know, it couldn't have been any better. Yeah, but that's one in a million, right? So, but when the very first person or the first two people I took lessons from, one happened to be over at a local golf course and I called and asked if he'd be willing to try it. I said, if we did this, would you be willing to give it a try? So before I ever came, he said, I really gave it a lot of thought on if I couldn't see. He said, I closed my eyes even at the driving range trying to figure this out, what could be some issues. So, you know, he was, he was real willing to try. And so between us, I Mean, with his desire and willingness and things, he'd asked me then, what if this or that, we were able to come up with systems that worked. And then I also, my. I have a cousin who was a pro that, you know, he's not around here that much in this area, but when he was, I asked him a couple times if he could spend a couple lessons with me, just trying to get a few things worked out. So I think together you can figure it out. But like I said, when you really want to fine tune it, it takes. I think if we're not getting something, it's good for us to tell them what it is. That would be helpful, I think. Probably. [00:41:47] Speaker B: How has blind golfing impacted your confidence or daily lives outside the sport? [00:41:56] Speaker A: Oh, I think just the friendships I've developed over the, you know, over the past five years, you know, dude and I, we get together three, four, two. We live up. It's funny, when I live down in the Twin Cities, we live four blocks from each other and didn't even know each other. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:42:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:16] Speaker A: Now I live, what, 200 miles, 300 miles away. Get together. [00:42:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Four, three, four, five times a year. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:24] Speaker A: You know, and play golf and we've been to tournaments together and. [00:42:28] Speaker C: Yep. [00:42:29] Speaker A: You know, socialize together and. [00:42:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Wives. [00:42:32] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, it's been great. [00:42:34] Speaker A: All the other. All the. All the golfers in the, in the, in the organization, for the most part, are just welcoming as heck. I mean, that was the first thing. When my wife and I went to our first trip out in Arizona, we couldn't believe how friendly everybody was. [00:42:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a real wonderful group. [00:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I could see, you know, if somebody's coming in from the outside and they didn't know anybody, how they could feel fairly, like, alienated or nervous that I'm gonna go there and no one will talk to me and I won't know anyone and. [00:43:10] Speaker C: No, everybody will talk to you, but it is intimidating. [00:43:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:14] Speaker A: The first time I went out, you know, on my first tournament and my first tee box, I'm just. I was just, oh, my God, I'm gonna miss the ball and I'm gonna whiff and, you know, and I probably did. I don't even remember anymore, you know, but. But nobody laughs at you. Nobody. They'll laugh with you, but they won't laugh at you. You know, I mean, we got. We have golfers in the organization from 17 all the way up to 90, and we just lost one year ago, that was 93, that wouldn't miss a tournament. [00:43:44] Speaker B: Wow. [00:43:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:47] Speaker A: So it's a really well rounded organization as far as, you know, ages and such as this. [00:43:56] Speaker C: And I think, I think Sam probably too, if that's. Didn't mean you're up to. Go ahead. My friend Angie had given me this one comment before my first tournament because she knew I was, you know, really anxious about it. And she said, just get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Just tell yourself that you're going to. Yeah. And she says, because other golfers who aren't blind or visually impaired are uncomfortable when they go to their tournaments. So she said it's no different. [00:44:21] Speaker A: I still get nervous. [00:44:23] Speaker C: I do too. [00:44:23] Speaker A: I still get nervous. [00:44:25] Speaker C: Your first tournament. Oh, your first tournament. I thought, I think I'm going to get sick. But once we got through that, it was wonderful. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:36] Speaker B: So what advice would you give to a blind person who wanted to try golfing? [00:44:42] Speaker C: Do it. Absolutely. Do it. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Just go out and do it. Yeah, just go out and do it. Don't buy clubs. Do not go out and buy a bunch of clubs right away. Pick up some clubs that. Well, you know, most, most golf courses will rent you clubs or go to Goodwill or something like that and you know, get some for five, six bucks a club or whatever they cost. But don't go out right away and spend a lot of money because golfing is not, you know, it's not a cheap sport. You mean it costs money to play every golf course and. But don't go spending 5, 600 bucks or more on golf clubs right away. [00:45:24] Speaker C: No, I mean, not everybody will maybe really like it, but until you try things, how do you know. [00:45:32] Speaker B: If you go to your first tournament, you bring rented or whatever clubs you have. Do you bring balls too? Do they come with balls there? How does that work? [00:45:42] Speaker C: You need balls. [00:45:43] Speaker A: You gotta bring your own for the most part. At each tournament you get a dozen golf balls, but those you'll go through in no time. They go in the water, they go into the woods or something. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:46:01] Speaker A: Yeah, but don't invest a lot of money until you know you like the. [00:46:05] Speaker C: Game and playing the game don't. It's taken me a bit. You just let it go. If you had a bad hole, that one's done, there's another one ahead and just forget the one you were just on. It's hard, but you know, and he's absolutely right. When Kurt said you can have a really good day, you can also have a really bad day. The last tournament of yours, I believe Kurt, it was. I had a bad day first and I don't Know what happened the next day. I had no idea who that person was golfing the second day because wasn't the one that was golfing the first day. So that can happen, but it happens to any golfer, sighted or not, you know. [00:46:43] Speaker B: So how can someone find out more about golfing, blind golfing? [00:46:49] Speaker A: Go to the USBGA.com and learn about it if you want they can email me. If I can. [00:47:00] Speaker B: You may. Go ahead. [00:47:02] Speaker A: You may. It is C Jones 1026@p r t e l.com and want to give that again. I'll gladly see Jones [email protected] and I will gladly, you know, answer any questions you have. Call you back. Leave me your phone number. I'll call you back. And you know, heck, I cold called Judy Messina. I didn't know her from Adam. Yeah, I don't want to call someone. [00:47:43] Speaker C: On a Sunday afternoon. Thankfully it worked out. [00:47:48] Speaker B: And anybody, if they, if they email me, I can, I can forward the email to you. So. [00:47:54] Speaker A: Yep. [00:47:56] Speaker C: Kurt, you've got to give the slogan though. You don't have to see it to tee it. Right? [00:48:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's our slogan. You don't have to see it to tear. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Ah, cool, Cool. Well, is there any other thing you'd like to discuss? [00:48:11] Speaker A: I mentioned that we are having the national tournament in Minnesota next year in September at Oak Marsh Golf Course in Oakdale, Minnesota. We're hosting the. My. The nationals. We're looking forward to that. [00:48:25] Speaker B: 2025 anybody? [00:48:28] Speaker A: Yeah, 2020. It'll be their 79th tournament. National tournament. And we'll be looking for volunteers day services for the blind. Is wants to get involved with us and the Minnesota Golf association wants to get involved with it. So we're hoping to put on a good show out there at the Oak Marsh Golf Course. [00:48:52] Speaker C: Yep, it's a great. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Wants any information? Yeah, it is. Anybody wants any information on that or how to join? We're always looking for more people. We want, you know, ladies, please. [00:49:04] Speaker C: We want ladies sign up ladies. Not that we don't want the guys. We do. I'm just saying we'd love to see more women. The guys are great but you know, so we're hoping you're gonna be out there. [00:49:19] Speaker B: So how many. What are the dates again? [00:49:22] Speaker A: The dates are September 17th through the 19th. Is the practice round on the 17th? The two day tournament? 18th and 19th. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Wow. Okay then. And I guess you don't have to as long as you're a member. Do you have to pay them to be in that tournament? [00:49:47] Speaker A: Oh, sure. Oh yeah. You have to be an entry fee for every tournament you play in. [00:49:51] Speaker B: How much is the entry fee for the nationals is? [00:49:54] Speaker A: 250. But that. But along with that, you get your hotel paid for, all your golf paid for, and one or two meals paid for for you and your coach. So, you know, you get quite a bit for that money. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:50:12] Speaker C: It's a good deal. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Any other thing you'd like to leave us with? [00:50:22] Speaker A: Get off the couch and get out there and play. That's what I, you know. Well, you know, whenever I've gone out, talk to an organization for my. For my tournaments, you know, trying to raise money or whatever, I always start by saying, everybody in this room knows somebody who is visually impaired somehow. I don't care. You know, Uncle Bob, Aunt Mary, Cousin Jim somebody, or the neighbor down the street somebody. Everybody knows somebody who was losing their vision somehow, you know, or other. And instead of sending and bringing them home and sitting them on the couch and say, here, watch tv, which normally I enjoy doing that. But get up and get, you know, get their butts off the couch and get them up there involved in a sport or, you know, like golf, because that'll. It'll get them back in socializing and society and everything that goes along with that. And then you gotta add. Judy. Add to that. Judy. [00:51:19] Speaker C: Well, I would say for those of us who are in winter wonderlands, it's a sign of hope. Pretty looking forward to golf. So. [00:51:28] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to get. I'm gonna have to get you into darts, Judy. [00:51:32] Speaker C: I would love to try that sometimes. [00:51:33] Speaker B: I think you'll have to. Okay. [00:51:35] Speaker C: Okay, we'll do it. [00:51:36] Speaker B: All right. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on. I really appreciate it, and it's been fun, and I'm probably. Will be seeing you soon. [00:51:46] Speaker C: Yep, yep, yep. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Thanks for having us. [00:51:48] Speaker C: Yep. Thanks for having us. [00:51:50] Speaker B: You're so welcome. We hope you've enjoyed this program, and if you have. Oh, did I do that, Charlene? It was probably you. I'm gonna play the blame game. It was probably Charlene that did that. Yeah, that was. Aha. If you did enjoy this program, please feel free to suggest other programs. Right now, we're kind of doing a sports lineup here. Next week, we're gonna be featuring Courage Kenny. And they're gonna be talking about their winter sports and things like that that they do so that they kind of host that and teach people to do that. And they did this last summer, host golfing. So if you kind of wanted to get some experience on a golf course, you could do that through them and it was much less expensive than I think. Sometimes if you go on a regular course and don't know what you're doing and they lined you up with a volunteer and with all these sports that are coming up that they'll talk about, they line you up with a volunteer so that you can have an idea on what to do and how to do it. So look forward to hearing that next week and we'll let you know what's coming after. If you want to be on our email list, you can email us at disabilityandprogressamjasmin.com and that we will send you a list of shows coming up. We don't share the emails, we don't sell your info. Don't worry. And of course we always welcome suggestions and you may talk to us about anything disability related. We love to hear from you. This show works because of you. And I want to thank the station, Charlene. They really, they always offer us the ability to use their equipment and support us and, you know, when we are unable to make it in, support us with other stuff. Often they help us with engineering stuff from home. So thank you, kfai and they work because you guys support them. So like I said, thank you for all your support throughout the year and hope you will continue to do so. Anything you want to leave us with, Charlene? [00:54:15] Speaker C: No, but you know, it. 2025 is coming around the corner and we probably got a bunch of stuff to show you or tell you. Oh, in the new year. [00:54:27] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. All right, thank you everybody and talk to you next week. This has been Disability and Progress. The views expressed on this show are not necessarily those of KFAI or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. If you want to be on my email list, you may email us at disabilityandprogressamjasmin.com Charlene Dahl is my research PR person. Erin is my podcaster. Thank you, Erin. Tonight we we were speaking with Kurt Jones and Judy Messina, two golfers with various eye conditions, talking about how to blind golf. If you want to get into that or find out more information, you can email me at disabilityandprogressamjasmin.com and I'll gladly forward your email. Otherwise, thank you so much for listening. Goodbye.