Speaker 0 00:00:14 And this is disability and Progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about, and discussions on disability prac, disability topics. Someday, I'm gonna get that thing to play all the way through. My name is Sam, I'm the host of this show. Thanks so much for joining in. Charlene Doll is my research woman. Hello, Charlene.
Speaker 2 00:00:34 Hello. I'm keeping my germs at home.
Speaker 0 00:00:37 Yes, indeed. She's at home doing whatever, keeping her germs with her. That's good. You're not the only one. So anyway, uh, tonight we have a number of people that are gonna be on and, but I wanna, um, start out by letting people know that I do serve on this committee, uh, so that it's a disclosure. And, um, other than that, um, we also have our k FFA I listeners club that I did not give Charlene anything this week because mostly I didn't wanna hear her read Sick, but <laugh>. But if you wanna join our listener club, you can email me at Disability and
[email protected] and we will announce your arrival to the Listenership Club of K F E I and disability and Progress. So, without any further ado, this week we have off leash and off guilt. So the, we've got Paul Herwig, who is also with us. Hi Paul.
Speaker 3 00:01:43 Hi Sam. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 0 00:01:45 Amy Salway, um, who's with us? Hi, Amy.
Speaker 4 00:01:52 Oops. Unmute yourself. Amy. Hello, <laugh>. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 0 00:01:56 And of course, Atlas Phoenix, who is here. Hi Atlas.
Speaker 5 00:01:59 Hey, how are you doing?
Speaker 0 00:02:01 It's nice to have company in the studio.
Speaker 5 00:02:03 <laugh>. I know, right?
Speaker 0 00:02:04 Paul's also keeping his germs to
Speaker 5 00:02:06 Himself. <laugh> <laugh>. Everyone's keeping their germs to themselves as they should. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:02:12 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:02:13 It's a lonely time. I
Speaker 0 00:02:15 Know
Speaker 4 00:02:17 <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:02:17 Well,
Speaker 3 00:02:18 I even had my flu shot this year and I still got it. Ugh.
Speaker 5 00:02:21 Well, remember 2019, we were all freely sharing our germs. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:02:26 <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:02:27 It's like an orgy. Not
Speaker 0 00:02:28 Those, those days are gone. It's
Speaker 3 00:02:31 A Georgie.
Speaker 5 00:02:32 A Georgie. There you go. And
Speaker 3 00:02:33 Georgie germ. Orgy is a Georgie.
Speaker 0 00:02:35 Yeah. There you go. <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:02:37 So gonna use that.
Speaker 5 00:02:38 Do we have to keep things clean? Just outta curiosity? <laugh>?
Speaker 0 00:02:41 Yeah, we should, um, tone it down a little bit. Um, silly,
Speaker 5 00:02:44 Silly darn.
Speaker 0 00:02:46 I know, I know. We could, we could really get off kilter, so to speak. <laugh>. So this week we're talking about all things off kilter, and I wanna start out, well, actually what I wanna wanna do is have each of you, um, give a little bit of history on yourselves and how you have been, are, or are thinking about being affiliated with Off Kilter. So, Atlas, since you came in to see me, <laugh>, I am playing favorites <laugh>. So you get to start first.
Speaker 5 00:03:18 Well, my name is Atlas O Phoenix. I'm a filmmaker and artist. Um, actually I'm kind of dropping the moniker of filmmaker and switching to all tour because I'm a storyteller and that's what that means. Oh. And so, um, I have, uh, I'm working on a project right now, a documentary about my, uh, transition that I started at 50 and my mental health journey of nearly 40 years. Wow. And I, uh, met up with Paul and Jennifer of Off Kilter, um, when a friend, um, John Kalan dropped an email into my inbox and said, Hey, you should apply for this. They're looking for people for their cabaret. And their cabaret was cleverly titled Organ Recital. And we had to, we had to pick an organ to talk about it. Um, the social, the social, uh, politics of it, personal politics, all of that. And I not so cleverly chose, um, my largest organ, which is my skin
Speaker 0 00:04:16 <laugh>, which is a fantastic organ to talk about actually,
Speaker 5 00:04:19 <laugh>. It is. I'm still trying to own that. I actually, um,
Speaker 0 00:04:22 I, I think a lot of people don't think of skin as an organ. No, actually, but you are. It's like your largest
Speaker 5 00:04:28 It is. Yeah. So it's our largest organ and our most criticized organ. And that is true <laugh>. That's why I developed most visible organ. Most visible. Visible, yes. And that's why I, uh, chose that. And initially it was going to be around skin color because of what happened with George Floyd, uh, his murder. Um, but then I thought about, oh wait, like, it's so much bigger than just, um, MEO phobia, which is what I, I'm kind of separating MEO phobia and racism. Um, I think racism is one human against another human, uh, and their humanity. And that's how I define it for myself. And I feel like what people are referring to as meo phobia, which is the fear of someone else's skin color. Ah. And so, and that's kind of like, that came through writing the, uh, monologue for Ordinary. And, um, I wasn't able, ironically, to perform it, which was going to be, uh, nude while I dressed up as a Phoenix.
Speaker 5 00:05:18 I got Covid literally 24 hours before the show. And, uh, Paul and Jennifer were just like, can you film it? And I was like, yeah, I can try that. And I initially had a 57 shot list kind of, kind of thing, and I was like, you have Covid. You're not gonna do this. And so I was sick, and I just used the footage of my documentary Beautiful Boy, and crafted very crudely, uh, a film. Uh, and I just recorded the monologue and just gave it to them. And then now it's a much more polished film that's gotten into, uh, four festivals so far.
Speaker 0 00:05:49 Excellent. Yeah. Excellent. You must be very proud of that.
Speaker 4 00:05:53 So fast. I could not believe what a professional product you ended up creating in 24 hours while sick.
Speaker 5 00:06:01 I actually did it in six hours. Not bragging, but I had to sleep. And by the time I realized I couldn't do the 57 shot list, it was 1130 at night <laugh>. So I woke up at six 30 and just cut it, cut it, cut it, and turned it in at like 12. So yeah. Excellent. <laugh> limit
Speaker 3 00:06:17 Limitations are great for
Speaker 5 00:06:19 Creativity. Yes, they are. Yes, they are.
Speaker 0 00:06:22 Well, let's start with you now, Amy.
Speaker 4 00:06:26 Oh my goodness. Who
Speaker 0 00:06:27 Are you anyway,
Speaker 4 00:06:28 <laugh>? Who am I? I ask myself that every day. Um, so I have been an actor, writer, storyteller and narrative arts instructor in the Twin Cities for 23 years and elsewhere before that. Um, and, uh, I've also lived for 32 years with chronic fatigue syndrome, um, which has gotten more and more severe as time has gone by. And I, um, for, for an extremely long time, hid that fact. Um, I didn't want anybody to know that I had an invisible disability, and I ran my whole arts career, um, sort of, sort of surreptitiously around my symptoms. I organized my life so that I could keep touring solo shows, um, and then crash afterwards for a period of six weeks and then take more work. Um, I, I worked day jobs and I still tried to hide all the ways that I was experiencing symptoms and disability.
Speaker 4 00:07:36 Um, and around 2010 it became more, for one thing, I I was getting worse. There's, there's very, very little research on chronic pet fatigue syndrome, which is now technically called Myalgic encephalomyelitis, but we don't have to say that. Um, anyway, um, uh, no, you know, there was no, there were no guidelines to go by. There was no way to know, like, as your disease progresses, you may encounter the following. There was no handbook, no Wikipedia entry, nothing. Um, so I didn't know that my time was limited and that after a while I would not be able to, you know, to to live on a cycle of like, remission and active symptoms. And I wouldn't be able to recover from a huge output of energy and then keep going. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and a lot of things about my illness and, and some of the other, some of the other health conditions I have just really, you know, hit like an anvil between 2010 and 2013.
Speaker 4 00:08:44 And because the Twin Cities back then still had VSA Arts, still had, you know, the wonderful John Stalin running that organization. Um, and also had some opportunities where a person could, um, perform and be a little unusual, like Patrick's Cabaret, right. And 20% theater. I, I started sort of coming out about being disabled mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I started not hiding. And, um, talking more and even performing about having a hidden disability, um, I started creating pieces about living with chronic fat fatigue syndrome and all the ways that the world made that very difficult and the various things that I had struggled with. Um, and, you know, it's, it's been, um, I remember thinking back when I wasn't telling anybody about being disabled, I remember thinking, if people know I will lose work and I will be discriminated against, and people will think I'm unreliable and people will not cast me or, or, you know, give me classes to teach mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:09:57 Because they'll think, you know, who knows when she'll get sick. Here she is, you know, looking like a normal person. But, um, but maybe she's not <laugh>. Maybe she's not normal. I think maybe, you know, there there's some signs. Um, and my fears were justified. That is the case. Some of those things did happen, but some of the good things that happened were that, um, I found, you know, I found other people who were also living with disabilities and, um, and this theater company that I had loved, that I had been a huge fan of for years off leash area, uh, called me, you know, right before the pandemic started and said, we are kind of thinking about starting up a disability cabaret. And I was like, yes, I'm there. I'm on it. What do you want? I'll do it. Anything <laugh>. Uh, and that was, you know, that was like finding, oh, like finding the angels singing and, uh, that brush, that breath of fresh air, um, of people who understood what it was like to be somebody with disabilities working in performing arts, which are not an arena that has been very good about being inclusive, accessible, and acknowledging all the human differences that exist in the world.
Speaker 4 00:11:16 Interesting. Um, so I've been, I've been on the planning committee, and then I also performed a piece in the first inaugural cabaret about chronic fi fatigue syndrome. Excellent. Paul, your turn.
Speaker 3 00:11:28 Hi, Sam. Hi. Wow, thank you so much. Um, Amy and Atlas? Well, my name is Paul Herwig and I am the co-director of the dance and theater company called Off Leash Area, which, um, generated this program, uh, off kilter. And, um, uh, we had a, uh, Sam told me on previous interviews stop saying, um, so I'm working really hard <laugh>, so not, um, so, uh, um, I didn't even try <laugh>. Yeah, I know you were very good. Um, no. So we had a, a, a theater, a a physical theater, a building, um, that we opened, um, in like 2017. And we put our hearts and souls in a lot of sweat equity into making this, uh, property exist. And it was, uh, the purpose of it was to have an alternative, um, totally technically flexible, but equipped space for independent creators, because off-Leash area is really an artist run nonprofit.
Speaker 3 00:12:39 We've been in Minneapolis for 25 years now. Uh, we've created 30 original productions, and our work is, um, not normal. Um, and it's not totally, uh, uh, disregarding of the audience. So it's very arty, but it's very human. And, um, we thought to find our place, having this building and making it available to the small community, uh, in Minneapolis would be a beautiful thing to do. So that's what we did. And, uh, in 2020, we are about to have our largest year yet of our short three year history in the building with, uh, rentals, with all kinds of, a really diverse group of both emerging and mid-career artists who creating new work. And, um, we had some really fantastic community programs in development, one of which was off Kilter. And what happened was, is what we all know, what happened is the pandemic. And so we couldn't survive the pandemic financially, excuse me.
Speaker 3 00:13:50 And, um, so the building closed and the property got sold, and we had this program that we had funding for, and you know, by God we weren't going to let it go. So, um, Amy and others were on board with us, and we just said, no, no, no, we're gonna make it happen. We're gonna make it happen. And, um, so we're very tenacious and we did, and we created the first off Kilter Cabaret, uh, last year after several schedule changes, uh, some long short term and some with advanced notice. Right. And, um, by all accounts, it was super, super successful. And, um, off-leash area, you know, we've had, um, an organic connection, I think, to the disability community in many different ways. Um, I myself have low vision. I've had low vision since birth. Um, I can't drive, um, you know, I'm pretty able, but, um, I'm really owning this aspect of my life now is in a public way, which I never did before. Um, and,
Speaker 0 00:14:56 Uh, does that make you feel uncomfortable?
Speaker 3 00:14:58 We also, um, worked with different organizations in town, like Blind Inc. Phillips Eye Institute, um, in collaborate, nami, the National Alliance and Mental Endless on some of our productions, um, in terms of flushing out the material, promoting the show audience development. Um, and we also, um, what was I gonna say? Well, so anyway, um, but we wanted to create off kilter to like really take a stand and say, everybody in the community of the performing arts in Minneapolis St. Paul can do better, and we can too. And we're this little company who've been around for a long time, and we have lots of accolades, but you know, our budget is the toilet paper budget of the Guthrie Theater <laugh>, and we can do it. And so if we can do it, they ought to be able to do it too. And so we've really taken on, you know, the flag of trying to create diversity and opportunity for persons with disabilities at the very heart of the mission of our company. And, uh, and we're very excited about this program, and that's why we're all here to talk to you today, Sam.
Speaker 0 00:16:08 So Paul, you mentioned about having, you know, kind of really displaying the disability part of you personally, um, with this. I'm wondering, has that made you uncomfortable? Or what has that been part been like that you're just kind of now, I mean, you've always had to deal with it, but now it's kind of like in your face doing something like this?
Speaker 3 00:16:38 Well, yeah. Gosh, that's a really good question, Sam. Um, uh, yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. Um, but it's, um, I'm kind of processing it all still. You know, I think today people are being really encouraged to own their differences, and that means different things for different people. I, I'm, I know, um, you know, for me, my, I mean, my entire life is intertwined with my vision. And sometimes I think to myself, oh, people probably don't really know this about me. And then I think, well, how could they not really, you know, <laugh>? And so why don't I just own it too? Why don't I own what everybody can sense or knows or can see about me?
Speaker 0 00:17:30 But can they, because you, you, you kind of can do pretty well without, I mean, I guess I don't, I feel like I don't think you display a lot of, well, I'm gonna get myself in trouble here, but heck, um, you know, sometimes people have more of a disability than others, meaning that, that it shows more than others. So I don't feel like yours has shown a lot, and I feel like you've been able to kind of hide under that. Um, so it, that, I guess that's, I don't know that everyone is, that it is obvious to everyone who meets you necessarily.
Speaker 3 00:18:15 Well, um, I, I'm not sure how to respond to that, Sam, I guess, uh, uh,
Speaker 0 00:18:22 <laugh>, just my, just my, just
Speaker 3 00:18:23 My, I've, I've been encouraged to, uh, embrace this, I guess, and by colleagues and, um, and funders. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and, um, I, I dunno, I
Speaker 0 00:18:37 So
Speaker 3 00:18:38 What to say, but
Speaker 0 00:18:39 <laugh>, that's, that's okay. This is just a statement. Um, let's talk about the cabaret that you had, and can I tell people what that, a little bit about what it was like? You kind of touched on it briefly, but you're gonna do another one. What do you wanna see different from comparative from last year's to this year?
Speaker 3 00:19:05 Well, uh, we are launching this next phase of the Off-Kilter program by offering four, uh, community meetings that we're inviting, uh, allies and advocates of persons with disabilities to come to. And it's a real listening session for us, uh, not only as an organization, as off-leash area, but also, um, the leadership team of which Amy is the core member to, uh, hear what people want to say to us about how they think that, um, the situation can be improved in the performing arts community, because that's our expertise. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we wouldn't be able to solve the problems of the world, but we can at least look at the performing arts community here in Minneapolis. Um, so part of my answer to you is that we don't know, uh, because we want to hear from people, we have some ideas. Um, and, you know, several of us on the leadership team are professional, uh, performing artists. And so we have some ideas, um, but we really want to hear from the community.
Speaker 4 00:20:13 We could, we could say a little bit about what the first cabaret was like. Yes, sure. Please do. Yeah. The fact that we had seven, was it seven different acts? Is that right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So
Speaker 3 00:20:24 Atlas being one with you. Yep.
Speaker 4 00:20:26 Yeah, I was one, Atlas was one. Um, Dan Reas did a video piece, um, pat Samples did a spoken word piece, um, uh, young Dance did a, a big group dance number that was absolutely beautiful. Um, so when we had planned that first cabaret, we knew that we wanted to, to hit that Venn diagram overlap of representing as many different disabilities as possible, and as many different ways of addressing and creating art around those disabilities as possible. Um, so we had sought proposals from artists. We advertised all over the place, um, seeking proposals from groups and individuals who would wanna participate. Uh, we looked at them all and put together this lineup, um, of seven, seven different acts. Um, and there was, yeah, there was narrative, film, dance, um, all puppetry, um, all kinds of different pieces. And I think that's something that we still want, um, and, and hope to see even more of, even more approaches to, um, to some of the questions around what is it like to live with, with both visible and invisible disabilities? What kinds of things have people embraced? What do people wanna say? What mediums do they wanna say that through? Um, I don't, I don't even know how much we've talked about another theme, Paul. I don't, we haven't talked about that a whole lot yet. Um,
Speaker 3 00:22:01 No, it's still very early, I think, in the process. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:22:03 But, but one of the things that we wanna hear in these group meetings is what are people moved to create? What is on their minds? And how do they wanna put those things on stage? Or if they're audience members, if they intend to, to not be a performer, but to be in the audience, which is equally wonderful, what do they wanna see represented? What, where is the lack? What do they want to see that makes them feel included, that makes them feel like progress is being made, um, in the world of disability justice?
Speaker 0 00:22:37 So did you have to have a disability to be in this cabaret? And if so, what did you count as a disability? Cuz I mean, it feels like the margins are getting wider and wider. So,
Speaker 4 00:22:57 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:22:59 Um, well, um, when someone submitted, we were open to, we were open to any type of disability, and we waited for the pool of applicants to arrive. And we assessed each applicant on the merits of their proposal and how they spoke about themselves and, and their disability. And the leadership team and a, uh, panel, uh, made up of leadership team members assessed those proposals and decided which proposals to include based on that criteria.
Speaker 4 00:23:42 I remember, um, I remember sending out an email to a whole bunch of friends who I thought might be interested in performing. Um, and some of the answers that I got back from people were folks saying, I don't feel like I'm enough of a performer. To which of course, I would always say, yes, you are. Um, and a couple people saying, I don't feel like I'm disabled. So that was kind of interesting, um, that people do have different definitions of disability and whether they count as being someone disabled or not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I had, I had nudged a friend of mine, um, who has, uh, chronic pain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and she said, no, I mean, chronic pain isn't really a disability. I, I don't count. I think somebody else's voice should be in there. Um, yeah. So, so I think there really is an individual definition.
Speaker 5 00:24:37 Yeah. I think some people think that they're not disabled, quote, unquote enough, and that holds them back for maybe, uh, participating in, in, uh, arenas where they are actually disabled enough. Um, yeah. You know, whether someone told them that or they just fear that, and so they don't, um, they don't come out and they don't participate, and that's too bad because we're missing out on what they have to offer. So that's a thing too.
Speaker 0 00:25:02 But I do think, like the ada, they do have lists of what they consider as a disability. And I think that sometimes, like certainly artists, um, and, and places have kind of widened the margins of what they consider as a disability. So I think people get confused, actually, you know, I, I think they have the idea of what they think the ada a set of disability is mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then there's maybe what the theater or person who's putting on the plate would consider would be a disability. And unless you're going by the ada, um, you may widen your margin of what you believe a disability is so that more people are included. And, and, you know, that's, that's what I think some people may be going by.
Speaker 5 00:25:56 Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, I kind of, I have a mental health, um, disabilities mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, there's always a question of like, you know, am I stable enough to take on this particular thing? And it's like, well, I'm on disability. Um, and it, you know, that's kind of a blessing in disguise because I'm able to actually create the work that I do because I have the time to do it, and I have financial stability from the government to, to take care of rent and bills and food. Um, and so I'm able to create, but it also took me five years being on disability to feel comfortable creating. Right. You know, cause there was a guilt trip that, you know, my friends were working and, you know, slaving away their jobs. And here I was just sitting on the sofa staring off into space trying to figure out how I got here. You know? And now I embrace it because it, it, you know, the disability is practically a studio for me to work in every day. And that's how I'm choosing to see it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 3 00:26:48 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:26:49 Um, you're, we're going to be having some community meetings. Do you wanna talk a little bit about those?
Speaker 3 00:26:58 Yeah. We're, um, we received funding from the Metropolitan Regional Arts Council to, uh, develop this program. And one of the things that the off Kilter leadership team and the off-leash area board of directors decided to do, uh, who are, by the way, a combined 50% persons with disabilities, not including myself. Um, they decided to, uh, create these meetings as a, again, like, as a, not only an information opportunity to spread the word about the off-kilter program, um, to look for more support from individuals and organizations to, um, get, gets a broader awareness of the program. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that we get more, uh, artists, um, submitting proposals to participate and for our audience. Um, we're also looking for, um, organizational partners. And that's a kind of a open term for us right now. It's, again, like any relationship, it's what you decide it's going to be.
Speaker 3 00:28:04 Right. There could be an organizational partner that, um, supports us financially. It could be an organizational partner that supports us with staff. Um, and also that might, uh, support us by asking us provocative questions and making sure that we're thinking about the things that we need to think about when we implement this program. Um, because nothing's fixed. It's a human endeavor, and it changes all the time. So, um, and just hopefully gets better and better. Um, so these four meetings are happening at four different locations. Do you want all the information about dates and times and locations, Sam?
Speaker 0 00:28:43 I think that would be good.
Speaker 3 00:28:46 Okay. And then I can repeat it later too, and I'm sure you'll post it on your website. Um, so there are four meetings, and this is Conversation Refreshments, community building, um, you know, getting together PO in this kind of weird whatever, this is Covid Post, post post Covid World to, you know, really kind of make connection again. And, and, you know, one thing about the pandemic is that it really disrupted things and kind of took apart systems and stuff, but it's also an opportunity to build and, you know, everybody involved in the Off-Kilter program. And we at off Lesh area who are kind of, uh, the host organization for it. Um, you know, we wanna see it grow. It's only the beginning. So anyway, the community meetings. Um, so the first one is Friday, March 3rd from one to 3:00 PM at the, uh, national Alliance on Mental Illness, which is on University Avenue in St.
Speaker 3 00:29:50 Paul. That's March 3rd. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, March 8th is at State Services for the Blind and Visually Handicapped, and that's also on University Avenue in St. Paul again in the afternoon. And all this information will be up for you later. The third meeting is Springboard for the Arts on March 9th, again on University Avenue in St. Paul. And then the fourth meeting is Courage, Kenny Saturday, March 11th, golden Valley Road in Minneapolis. So, uh, Sam will have that information on the K F A I, hopefully, or at least a link to our website where you can get all that information, rsvp, ask us questions, whatever you need to do to help us and to, um, help build a community for this program.
Speaker 0 00:30:39 And what do you want the community to, like, what, what do you want from the community that comes to these, these community meetings?
Speaker 3 00:30:53 Well, as I mentioned, we want them to hear about the program, um, introduce ourselves to each other, and we'd like to hear how they might want to see change in the performing arts community in Minneapolis regarding persons with disabilities and how those things might be incorporated into the Off-Kilter program. I mean, maybe it's not a specific proposal for something, but maybe it's a conversation that can enlighten us as we create it.
Speaker 0 00:31:22 We need to take, excuse me, another St. Short Station. Break your tune to K ffe I 90.3 fm, Minneapolis, and K ffe i org. This is Disability and Progress. We are speaking with off leash, off kilter, about off kilter. Um, we have Paul Herwig, Amy Salway, and Atlas or Phoenix. Um, so I guess, what do you want, you know what, once you have these and, and you're, cuz you are planning to have another, another, you know, cabaret right in the fall slash winter sort of in the fall.
Speaker 4 00:32:13 We are, we've, there's other, we should probably say there's other aspects of off Kilter two that we're hoping to grow and build. So for the first cabaret, we created a we little mentorship program to go along with it, um, where some of the established artists on the planning committee could mentor some of the newer artists who had, um, who had sent in proposals and been accepted, um, to help them get comfortable with their pieces, um, figure out what they wanted to create, um, help them grow as artists. And we're hoping to do that again as well, maybe even in a bigger capacity than we did the first time. Um, we've talked about having other smaller events during the year, besides the cabaret, some things that might be more informal, um, some appearances that might be, you know, less, less big budget and, and more sort of free and easy. Um, Paul, I'll turn the rest of this over to you.
Speaker 3 00:33:18 Um, um,
Speaker 0 00:33:19 Yeah, talk a little bit about the,
Speaker 3 00:33:21 Sorry, Sam, go
Speaker 0 00:33:22 Ahead. Talk a little bit about, you know, if somebody is kind of getting help with, you know, what, what they wanna do, what would that look like? Like how would you
Speaker 3 00:33:35 Right. Well, so our, one of our values and our goals in this program is to, um, provide what people would like us to provide them. Uh, so there are a lot of community programs that organizations, arts organizations put out there that to me can feel like clever academic programs that a board of directors might really enjoy hearing that they're doing. Whereas we want to create programs that actually immediately address what people are asking for. So everybody who comes to the Off-Kilter program comes from a different place. Um, there might be a young person who is an emerging artist, there might be an older person who is a mid-career artist. There might be an artist working in a certain discipline who would like to try to do something in a different discipline. And so if they're interested in the mentorship program, which can sound kind of hierarchical and it's not like that at all, um, they would talk to us and we would offer to them, well, here are the people on staff. Or maybe that artist says, well, I would like a mentorship program and I would like to have this person work with me because I've already started a relationship with that person on this particular piece I'm working on. So it could be so many different things. And our job is to listen to what artists would like for them to be able to do the best job they can do in the context of our program and to try to facilitate that.
Speaker 0 00:35:26 Okay. Well, um, I wonder if Amy or Atlas would like to talk a little bit more about their work and how it has, you know, been during this time and, and what you hope to, how you hope to attach it with, you know, off kilter.
Speaker 5 00:35:52 Um, would you like to go first, Amy?
Speaker 4 00:35:55 No, I think you should go first.
Speaker 0 00:35:57 <laugh>,
Speaker 5 00:35:58 There was a very clear decision made. All right. I'll, I'll go first. Um,
Speaker 0 00:36:04 You are bold
Speaker 5 00:36:06 <laugh> Amy or me <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:36:08 I was, I've become a huge fan of Atlas. Atlas is so multi-talented, it's a little bit scary. So I think Atlas should, uh, should, should do the talking right now.
Speaker 0 00:36:22 Okay. Sorry, Atlas. It's all you <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:36:25 All right. I'll talk about my scary work. Um, <laugh>, that was great, Amy. Thank you so much. And I'm, I'm so happy that you've enjoyed my films. Uh, Amy has seen, you've seen Little Men so far, is that it besides, uh, ordinary?
Speaker 4 00:36:38 Yeah. Okay. Yep. And I, and I, I watched the pieces that you submitted to us that were on Vimeo. Okay. Um, and I'm not positive, which, which piece of work they were from, but they were wonderful.
Speaker 5 00:36:51 Thank you. Um, those pieces would've been Little Men. And do I qualify for love? Um,
Speaker 4 00:36:56 Oh, do I hope Ever Love, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:36:59 Yes. Thank you. Um, and I also just wanna say that there wouldn't be ordinary if, um, I hadn't been selected to be a part of Off Kilter. Um, you know, I didn't even have a monologue. I just had an idea and I was like, well, I think the idea is pretty good, so we'll just see what happens. And then I kind of forgot about it, and then I got an email that was like, Hey, we love your piece. Can you, can you write something up? And so I just wanna, you know, give, uh, Paul and Jennifer and Amy just, you know, a lot of props for picking my piece. I really appreciate that. Um, my hope is to actually submit Ordinary the film, uh, for the next off-kilter, uh, production. So I'm looking forward to submitting that and seeing what happens. Um, I feel like with my work over the Pandemic over the last three years, um, it's been really challenging, um, for me, um, emotionally just because I kind of had like a nervous breakdown at the end of 2019.
Speaker 5 00:37:52 And then in 2020, about a month after, uh, the, uh, pandemic started in, the lockdown started, I had my ninth suicide attempt. And so it was really brutal. And then I started doing mental health work with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy and finished that in a year, and then started a month later with trauma therapy known as Air Network Therapy. And then I graduated from that a little over a year, and about a week later I graduated, um, from 12 years of regular talk therapy and actually through a birthday and trauma party, costume party, um, in November, this past November. And so just doing a lot of things and then I'll be starting, uh, emdr uh, probably in a few weeks. And so it's just like working on my mental health, um, has got me to a place where I'm able to think more creatively because I'm no longer, um, in another kind of mind frame where I can't think clearly.
Speaker 5 00:38:49 Ah. And so I'm able to contribute a lot to my work. And when I decided to transition at the end of 2020 and I made it official in 2021, um, I thought, you know, I was looking for any kind of information I could find about, uh, bipod trans-masculine folks at my age. And I'm, you know, I'm 52 now and I couldn't find anything, um, at any age. And I thought, well, you're in a award-winning filmmaker, why don't you just make your own story and put it out there so that someone like yourself or even younger can stumble across it and then they have something tangible that they can watch and, you know, maybe get inspired by, maybe make their own documentary or web series or whatever. Um, and then what I decided to do was something that was different than YouTube videos and actually create something that was cinematic.
Speaker 5 00:39:40 And that's part of like where the, the short Film Ordinary comes from, is that it's a very cinematic story. And so, uh, so yeah, and I don't know, I just feel like I was able to grow a lot in the last three years mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's made me a better writer, a better director, editor. And, you know, now I'm the subject of my own film and I have enough material to make a web series plus, um, a featuring film. And I'm also considering, uh, a comic book, um, series and a, uh, graphic novel of my life story. And so, so I'm just like creating, creating. And then I'm also releasing merchandise later this year. Scented Candles, t-shirts, that kind of thing to create, um, a beautiful boy experience. And then I also launched my website last year as well. And so just a lot of things I, I'm constantly doing something and once I'm finished, I move on to the next thing. So I almost, you know, like I hear the accolades, but I, I'm like That's great. Thank you. Thank you. And then I'm moving on to the next thing and cuz I gotta get it done, <laugh>. Yeah. I have less time than more time on this planet, so I'm trying to get everything done
Speaker 0 00:40:40 <laugh>. Well, good job and good luck with, you know, when you're doing your next thing.
Speaker 5 00:40:45 Thank you. I so appreciate that, Sam. Thank you so much,
Speaker 0 00:40:48 Amy. It's time. Oh,
Speaker 4 00:40:51 <laugh>, gosh. Um, um, I am not sure what to say about my artistic life.
Speaker 0 00:41:01 What are you working on now?
Speaker 4 00:41:04 Uh, <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:41:07 <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:41:08 Whoa, Sam Kelly.
Speaker 0 00:41:10 Well, the bright, the, the good answer would've been, well, my next piece for off Kilter of course.
Speaker 4 00:41:16 Right? That, that sure would've been a good answer,
Speaker 3 00:41:20 <laugh>. No, no, no. It's way too early.
Speaker 0 00:41:23 Well, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:41:24 Uh, so, um, so first, uh, first I wanna say that the piece, I, I took a really big risk with the first off Kilder and gave myself the challenge I had joked, okay, so it had been a joke, um, for quite a while. I had told people that, um, that while lots of people are standup comedians, if I was gonna ever try comedy with chronic fatigue syndrome, I would've to be a lie down comedian <laugh>, um, because there's so little standing up. But there's a whole lot of lying down in my life. And then I thought, oh my gosh, what if I actually tried to create a piece of lie down comedy and what if that's my piece for off kilter? I wanted to do something that wasn't what I usually do. So I am usually an autobiographical storyteller. Um, and I write pieces about my own life, right?
Speaker 4 00:42:24 Um, and perform them on stage and, um, as part of storytelling, concerts, and also on a podcast that I worked for. Um, but I took on this challenge of seeing if I could sort of veer a little bit and actually create a piece of, of really honestly, you know, comedy, not storytelling, but the kind of comedy that you might see in the club. And could it be about chronic fatigue syndrome, which is probably the least funny topic in my life. Um, so that's, that's what I tried to work on and I am not sure that I was successful. I, I I, how I wanted it to come out was not exactly how it came out. It ended up being less funny. <laugh> I had hoped for and more cerebral and not as anecdotal. And it was so, so I'm a little bit critical of, of how that effort sort of, you know, ended up, ended up being on stage. But
Speaker 0 00:43:28 It must have, must have given you ideas for like how you might change it or what
Speaker 4 00:43:33 You might definitely do
Speaker 0 00:43:34 Do with something like that in the future.
Speaker 4 00:43:37 It really, really did. It was a good growth experience, um, sort of realizing, uh, realizing things that needed more framing, um, things that needed to somehow still be more inclusive. Even though, even though part of the, part of the conceit that I was working with was that chronic fatigue is so isolating and is such a radically different, um, it creates such a radically different lifestyle than most people have that it's a very excluding illness. Yes, it's a very lonely illness. Yes. Um, but in joking about that, I think that material itself became kind of alienating <laugh> well, especially cause I actually let myself get a little bit angry on stage. Not super angry, but, you know, I was, I was working with, you know, those tones of bitterness and annoyance. Um, and I think I might have alienated the audience, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it made me think about how can this topic still be inclusive?
Speaker 4 00:44:40 How can it still be relatable? What can I go back and look at, uh, and, and maybe keep writing about that will not be, will not be us and them will still be unifying, but will give people a look into, into this life and into having had a life that has been so altered. Um, having been a person who has changed so much because of an illness that I had never asked for or expected. No one expects the chronic fatigue syndrome. Right. Um, yeah, so, so I'm still writing, um, what I'm actually working on exactly at this minute is that I am participating in and also being the story coach for, um, a night of Jewish storytelling, which is part of the, um, Minnesota J JCCs Jewish Humor Festival. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which happens every year. Um, so for the past three years, maybe more, maybe four, um, the Humor Festival has always had, um, really a cabaret, pretty much of Jewish storytelling, uh, sort of tilted towards humor. Um, so I am one of storytellers, uh, this year, and I'm also coaching the group of tellers. There's seven of us. Ah. Um, so we are just gearing up and getting that started right now. And, um, later in April I will be teaching a workshop and also performing at Story Fest, which is the big storytelling festival put on by Story Arts of Minnesota. So that's the local storytelling nonprofit that sort of oversees a lot of, uh, narrative arts events during the year. Okay. So I'll be doing that later.
Speaker 0 00:46:21 Do you have a website that you can give so people can kind of check out what you
Speaker 4 00:46:26 Doing <laugh>? The, my my website amy salway.com is totally static. I have not updated it since 2009 because I am so cool. I don't update websites anymore. <laugh>, all the cool kids are saying, let's not update those websites. <laugh> <laugh>, let's just hope that people psychically know what we're doing. Um, I'll, but what I use, what I use now, I know it's terrible. I'm horrible. Um, I will deal with that situation someday. Um, but for right now, I post everything that I'm doing on, um, Facebook, uh, both my personal page and also my little arts production page, which is facebook.com/awkward moment on or Awkward Moments on stage, which is it Awkward moment on stage, uh, because my theater company is Awkward Moment Productions.
Speaker 0 00:47:19 Excellent. Nice. Uh, at Atlas, do you have your, do you have your
Speaker 5 00:47:24 Website? Website? I do. It's, uh, beautiful boy.com beautiful boy.com, and the boy is spelled b o i. So beautiful boy.com. And you can find me on Instagram at Beautiful Boy Atlas Phoenix, and there's an underscore between each word, and you can find me on Facebook. Uh, beautiful boy, it's, uh, the Facebook page. I think it's beautiful. Boy, Atlas Phoenix, all one word, um, on Facebook. And, um, I'm mostly active on Instagram though. And so yeah, like my personal page on Facebook and then Instagram.
Speaker 0 00:48:01 Paul, where can we
Speaker 4 00:48:02 Find you? My first thing's on Instagram too, I should say Instagram back slash Amys.
Speaker 0 00:48:07 Paul, where can we find you?
Speaker 3 00:48:11 You can find me lying in bed because I've been so sick this last
Speaker 0 00:48:17 Week. Well, I'm not coming there, so you're gonna have to give us a better one. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:48:21 Well, I'm, I think what I'm really, my, one of my big goals is to replace myself with an AI chatbot
Speaker 0 00:48:28 Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 00:48:30 So that when anybody needs something from me, when they need to ask me a provocative question, that I just have this, you know, instant regurgitated response that just answers any kind of, you know, any kind of, um, request that's made of me. But until then, the best way to find me is probably, uh, and all things about off kilter is at www off leash area.org.
Speaker 0 00:49:01 All right. Uh, leash area. One word. No hyphens. Nothing like that.
Speaker 3 00:49:07 Nope.
Speaker 0 00:49:08 All right. You know, I just wanna touch base real quick on something that Amy said about how, you know, trying to pass on the idea that how alienated you felt having your disability, that it was kind of a lonely disability mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I think that is an interesting thing, and I think we all kind of get caught up in that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like having a disability is lonely. It is. And alienating mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I, I think you have the right idea, the conclusion that you came to. It's one thing to be alienated and feel alienated, but you need to figure out how to include people in your alienation, <laugh>, if that makes sense. How to make it inclusive so that people are feeling what you're feeling. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and not like, oh, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> instead, they're kind of, they're there with you. They kind of, it's, it's, uh, you know what I'm trying to say
Speaker 4 00:50:11 I do. That's true of almost all disabilities. Yeah. And it's also true that as a culture on the surface, we can look inclusive, but when it re, when you scratch that surface, when it really comes to confronting the, the actions and the behaviors that make the difference between being included and respected and, and feeling, you know, a sense of social justice and not a lot of time, there isn't as much follow through as you would think. Right. Um, Paul and I touched on that a little bit earlier. Um, when you really look at how is our culture functioning as far as, as recognizing people with disabilities and building a world where their needs are, second nature mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we haven't come as far as I wish we had
Speaker 0 00:51:09 Come, and that's a whole nother show,
Speaker 4 00:51:11 <laugh>. It's weird.
Speaker 3 00:51:13 No. Could I interject to say that, you know, what you just described Sam is as, um, responding to Amy's, um, Amy's, um, story that she was telling earlier. Mm-hmm. Um, that's really the answer to a lot of why we're doing this program off kilter and what we hope, one of the things that we hope to achieve with these community meetings is to show and make a space where people can come together and feel valued and their voices heard. You know, we're a small, tiny performing arts company, so we're not gonna solve the world's problems, but we're doing our part and that's the point of
Speaker 0 00:51:55 It. So, real quick, now, I want you to give the dates and times of these meetings coming up and how people can contact you.
Speaker 3 00:52:04 Well, first of all, people can, uh, contact us through off-leash area.org and there is a page on our website, the off kilter page that you can navigate to. And that has specific information about the community meetings, the program off kilter, the four locations, the dates, the times, and a button to click to R S V P, vp. Excuse me. So the first meeting is Friday, March 3rd at NAMI in St. Paul. The second meeting is State Services for the Blind and Visually handicapped on March 8th in St. Paul. The third meeting is at Springboard for the Arts on March 9th in St. Paul. And the fourth and last meeting is Courage, Kenny, Saturday, March 11th in Minneapolis.
Speaker 0 00:52:56 Okay. Well thank you guys for all being on. I really appreciate it. Special thanks to you Atlas for coming to, you know, the studio join me. Yeah, sure. <laugh>, I figured you needed some company. I did, I did. Charlene, are you still awake? Hopefully she is <laugh>, but, um,
Speaker 4 00:53:14 Thank you so much for having us. Thank
Speaker 0 00:53:16 You guys. Thank you so much. Yeah, this has been a blast. Appreciate it. All right, everyone. Yeah, I'm, I'm here. I'm sorry. All right. All right. All right. Thanks everyone for being on, and I hope you have a great night and, uh, I hope you do too. I will do. My close with this has been disability and Progress. The views expressed on the show, I have not necessarily been of kfi, I or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show, Charlene Dolls, my research woman, and Erin is my podcaster. And tonight we have been speaking with Off Kilter and that, and anybody affiliated with it, and that hasn't been included with Paul Herwig, Amy Salway and Atlas O Phoenix. This is Kathy I, 90.3 fm, Minneapolis and kfi.org g. You may email me at Disability and Progress, sam jasmine.com. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 6 00:54:15 K.
