Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:59 Greetings. And this is your tune and into K F I 90.3. This is disability and progress. We bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. This is kfi.org. And if you're trying to listen to the radio, but tuned in via web, you will find that we are not on the air right now, but we are online. We are web based and we are still streaming loud and proud because the, uh, ideas tower had a little bit of a flood in the twin cities and they shut down the electronics. Something about who knows maybe they were worried about electrocution. I'm not sure. Anyway, my name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Charlene dolls, my research woman. Hello, Charlene. Good evening, everyone. There you go. Tonight. We're speaking with Peter Elcho. Peter is speaking with us on how the book that he wrote, writing elephants, creating common ground, where contention rules can help people unite and advocate. Good evening. Uh, Peter.
Speaker 2 00:02:04 Good evening. Thank you for inviting me again to this show. I love your theme music. It's awesome. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:02:08 You know what? It's from the Nickelodeon, uh, wild thorn berries.
Speaker 2 00:02:16 Well, I am not a Nickelodeon guy and I love the music <laugh> so, um, when I say I'm not Nickelodeon, I never watch the never watched the, uh, the cable channel. So, you know, oh, I love that theme. I love that theme music as
Speaker 0 00:02:28 Stuff you need to have a built in kid around the house, then you'll watch it.
Speaker 2 00:02:31 That's true. <laugh> yeah. My, my kids are like 10 years too old for that. So, or 20 years. So some cases. Yeah. So anyway, it's, I'm delighted to be on the show.
Speaker 0 00:02:39 Thank you very much. I wanna do just a little bit of housekeeping to let everyone know it is indeed pledge drive. This is we're one week during the summer where we do our pledging. Um, please give what you can and, uh, show your support since we are here for you most, every week and love to keep bringing you our stuff and the information that you receive from us. So if you go to K F a I do O org, or if you have a smartphone and you have the K F E I app, you can go on there and click on pledge now and give what you can. We will always appreciate that. Peter, thank you again for joining. Can you start out by just giving us the listeners who don't know you, uh, a brief history about you and your writing?
Speaker 2 00:03:33 Sure. So I probably should start what happened to me when I was marketing my second book, which is called, uh, breaking it down and connecting the dots, creating common ground work, content rules. And while I was getting that book ready for publication, the first thing I was working with said, how would you summarize your life? If you were to write on a stick, stick note or a, you know, a banner or something, I thought, you know, I hate those kinds of things. Uh, you know, it's not the kind of thing I'm very good at, but I thought about it for a while. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And what I came up with was creating common ground where contention rules, which is really what I've been doing for most of my professional and even, uh, uh, not professional life, your
Speaker 0 00:04:15 Personal life <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:04:16 Yeah, I mean, raising three step kids is, is, you know, has, has its, has its challenges or helping to raise three step kids has its challenges. But I spent, um, for the PA, uh, for 20 years doing things like getting university, uh, folk and employer together, employers together to improve opportunities for college students with disabilities, ah, employers, employers, and college administrators are traditionally Don get along very well. Uh, they didn't get along well then, and I don't think they still do. Um, and then I was working on assisted technology issues. I was working, uh, training, New York city, taxi drivers and customer service. For those of you who aren't familiar with New York city taxi drivers, they're from all over the world. And so we're really dealing with, uh, you know, the UN of taxi drivers, if you will. It was a fascinating group of people to work with.
Speaker 2 00:05:03 And then, um, in the, in the, um, late nineties, I got a gig to encourage dialogue and join action between pro-life and pro-choice sorry, pro-life and pro-choice activists ha <laugh> those, um, and you know, through, and we did, we got some good work done, but the funding ended, you know, all that work. Sometimes the funding ends and you have to move on something else. And then I got involved in diversity and inclusion work, and then I got involved with immigration work and, you know, I occasionally to, to this kinda work anyway, that that's a long way of saying that my three books, the first of which is a memoir, uh, sort of talking about my life until around 2008 or seven. And then the, the next two books are sort of blog posts. I've written around the topic of creating common ground. You know, how do you do these things in various facets of your life, whether it be in the workplace, whether it be, uh, in religion, whether it be in politics, whether it be, uh, family, you know, and all kinds of things like that. So, um, the second book is called, um, as I said, breaking it down and connecting the dots. And the third book is the one you mentioned, which came out about a year ago called writing elephants, creating common groundwork contention rules. And, uh, so that's, that's my life history in two minutes or something.
Speaker 0 00:06:20 Well, you missed the, all you had to do is add advocating in COVID time and for guns or against guns, and you would have had the whole thing wrapped up
Speaker 2 00:06:32 <laugh> yeah. And I thought the funny thing is I did, did at the end of create of writing elephants, I have a whole section on, uh, the whole COVID thing and how I experienced it and how I experienced politics as it went through it and how it's, how the whole, uh, uh, you know, police whole thing happened through that whole, you know, and the election. And it's sort of the book ends at a president binds inaug inaugural address. So, um, so I was writing through that whole COVID thing. Um, so anyway,
Speaker 0 00:07:01 It is, uh, that's, it is quite an interesting book. I, you make it sound easier than I think I find it, but, uh, you do come up with some very fascinating, uh, things, all of which I think take some big patience, um, yes. As anything does when you're trying to deal with opposite sides of the spectrum with each other and
Speaker 2 00:07:29 Ops and opposites sometimes do not attract right. Sometimes very rep propel in a major way. Yeah. So, um, so the trick is to find, to find those attraction points. How can you find those things that can, uh, uh, stick people together at least a little bit that you can build upon and that's, and that's the, that's the, the first big step, and we can talk about that a little later or, or now if you want, but, um, that's, that's really the first part of this whole process. And then I, I just wanna sort of, you, people may be wondering how is this applied to disability? And, um, I finished the book and I was being interviewed by a, a disability advocacy organization. And during the course of the conversation, they were talking about, guess what advocacy, how can you be, be a better advocate? And it occurred to me when they were talking about this, that it, it felt like, and I think this is true for other disability organizations as well to some degree that we were still back in the 1990s when the ADA just passed and that, and that we, we sort of had sort of, uh, either forgotten or didn't take into account that politics have, I think passed for two years, happy birthday, ADA, by the way.
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Um, and, and so how do we, uh, so that got me thinking, how do we tailor our advocacy efforts, um, to, to, to adjust that change, but before, you know, but before we do that, I just want make us to sort of think about, do you agree? I mean, do you think things are than, than now? Cause if you don't then we're, then we have a different conversation, but if you, then we need to sort of think, I think we need to think a little differently.
Speaker 0 00:09:04 Yes. So, um, yes. I'd like to talk about that, but I wanna, I wanna step back just a minute because I will totally get to the, that, um, cuz I wanna touch on something that you said, which has to do with, I believe advocacy as well. It, in your, in your very early in the book, you say feelings, not thoughts drive action. And I wonder if you could expand on that and talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 00:09:34 Sure. So this, this thought, uh, this thought came from one of my mentors back in the nineties and early two thousands. And the idea is that feelings is the energy of, of what you're doing. Mm. And thoughts help you direct those feelings that it can help you go faster, go slower steer, steer them in a certain direction. And so the whole elf the, the, the, the metaphor about elephants is that elephants, uh, according to Jonathan hate, which was just, uh, who is a social psychologist, that's H E I D T
Speaker 2 00:10:13 <laugh>, if you think it might be gotcha. It is sort of ironic, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But Jonathan hate H a I T it might be height. I, uh, anyway, but, but the point is, um, he, he sort of compares feelings or intuitions as he calls 'em to elephants and says, we need to be better elephant writers. And the way you become better elephant writers is through your thoughts, cuz you can then steer your elephant. You can encourage it to go faster. You can encourage it to maybe jump a little bit or dance or maybe, uh, you know, go a little slower or maybe stop or maybe take a bite on the way <laugh> or whatever. But, but, but the idea is you don't want the feelings to be so much in control that you are, uh, you know, they're outta control and the elephants is rampaging, right.
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Uh, and so if you're working on your own stuff, you want to sort of think about that. And if you're working with other people you want to set up environments so we can all become better elephant writers, but this, this concept of feelings, not thoughts, drive action for me is a really important concept. And it, it appears all the way throughout the book. You'll see it in all kinds of different Gus. Um, so that's sort of the, the theory behind it. And by the way, I, um, I've been reading lots of stuff since, and it, it seems to back the social psychology and neuropsychology seems to back this up. So you have the one part of the brain, which is sort of the feelings part. And, uh, and if you let it run free, it will potentially do lots of damage. But then you have the other parts of the brain, which you can learn to control that sort of feelings part. And so it's a really, I think sort of fascinating part of, uh, for me, uh, you know, sort of neuropsychology,
Speaker 0 00:11:46 But then you get into the other idea that there are kind of a little more, more people who are more feeling and more people who are more thinking. And it seems to me there's, there's you're right. There's gotta be a combination that makes things that makes things work.
Speaker 2 00:12:03 So lemme say a little more about that, cuz it's true. I think there are people who are more on the feeling side and more on the thought side, but there's a concept that I, uh, that I write about, but called channeling mm-hmm <affirmative> and the basic idea of channeling is, and, and I'd ask all, uh, all of us to think about this. Have you ever been involved in a conversation with somebody and you're, you seem to be talking past each other and you're really making an effort. It's not where those conversations where one person is. You know, it's not really trying very hard, you know, but you really are trying to have a conversation and it's just not working. It may be in a significant relationship. It may be with your boss. It may be with your kids. It may be with, you know, whatever with your parents or maybe with friends, but if you're experiencing that kind of thing and we all do, um, and I've seen it happen so many times, mm-hmm <affirmative> what often is happening is that one person is speaking on the thought channel and one people is, one person is speaking on the feelings channel.
Speaker 2 00:12:56 So let me give you an example last night. Um, I was talking to a friend of mine who was terrified that she might have colon cancer. Mm. And, um, and, and I thought, so I was, so I was, she was very much in the feelings channel and I really tried, I'm a guy it's hard for me to do this sometimes, but I was trying really hard to focus on the feelings channel because she that's where she was. And um, if I tried to talk too much in the thought channel, it would, it just would fly by when I was saying to her and she, and she would feel unsupported. Right. If that makes sense. Right. You know, and, and so the idea is to sort of, if you're in a situation like that to sort of start where the person is, and most of the time it's in the feelings channel, which means that we guys who traditionally are more thought based traditionally there are exceptions to everything.
Speaker 2 00:13:46 Um, uh, you know, need to think about that. You know, if we start solving problems too quickly, we'll we won't get heard. Not only will we not get heard, we'll, we'll leave the impression that we're not that the, that the person on the feelings channel will feel not heard. And then, you know, things just deteriorate from there potentially. So, um, I, that, if that makes any sense to, and often, often the way this happens and the way I became aware of it was through my mentor. We, we ran week long, uh, uh, group dynamic team building sessions. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And what would happen is, uh, somebody usually a woman or, or a person of color or a person with disability would talk about a problem, right? Whatever it was that they were experiencing. And the other folks, often white males would try to solve the problem <laugh>, but that's not really what we wanted. Right. Then we, we wanted to be heard,
Speaker 0 00:14:37 Right.
Speaker 2 00:14:38 We didn't want our problem solved. Um, and, and usually, uh, and this is it getting back to disability for a second? Um, what did I say? Not, not about us without, without us. Right, right. Not about us without us. That's part of what this is about. We want to be part of the problem, problem, solving, approach, whatever the issue is. But often in order for that to happen, they, we need to feel heard. We need to feel empathize with, and part of what that is, is, um, con somehow connecting with our feeling channel. If, if you're, you know, if you're not disabled. Mm. And you're trying to work with us on a problem, right. It really is an important part of the process. And by the way, it's true of other way around. If we're trying to advocate for something, we need to focus on the feeling channel of the person, uh, that we're trying to advocate with and how we do that. We can talk about later,
Speaker 0 00:15:28 Good points. This is KFA 90.3 FM Minneapolis, temporarily stalled, but the k.org is working fine. And you can also note that, uh, after this show it will be podcasted. So Peter, careful, everything you stay will be there forever.
Speaker 2 00:15:47 I know it's a scary thought. I'm scared. Notice the feelings channel right.
Speaker 0 00:15:51 There you go. There you go. I'm terrified. Yes. I, I feel you feel for it because I have, I have said things that I wonder, I probably don't even wanna remember everything I've said. So I, I just won't. But the thing that I do want to remember is that you do sh you, you, we would love to have your support and please pledge. You can go to cafe.org and it's a secure website, or you can click on your little smartphone on the cafe app and pledge what you can and show us your support, because we hang in there for you. Um, Peter, you have an, there's just a couple concepts in your book that, that seem to kind of wrap everything all up to, to give you some really powerful tools to be able to work together with. Um, but you, you talk about rubber band rhetoric a lot.
Speaker 2 00:16:46 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:16:47 Tell us what that is.
Speaker 2 00:16:49 Sure. So we all belong to various groups, right? Uh, uh, our, our tribes, if you will. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I'm a musician, I'm a, I'm a disabled person. I do a lot of work on, uh, I'm a social psychologist. I'm a huge sports fan. I am a whole, whole bunch of other things. So, well, I belong to all these various groups and all groups are constantly adjusting who's in and who's outside. Right. You know, and, and it's, it's a, it's a common thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's not wrong or right. It just is. Who's included. Who's not. So if you stretch a rubber band out and I, I love rubber bands growing up as a kid, because if you stretch them out and you, and you th flunk them with your thumb or something, they made a deeper sound that if you didn't, and, but if, but if you stretch them too much, they broke and then what happened?
Speaker 2 00:17:38 They were useless. Right, right. You, you can't use them anymore. And that's the challenge that E EV every group has. If, if there are two, a throw band is totally not stretched at all, not enough information can get into the group to be useful. And if you stretch it too much, it breaks. And then the group doesn't form at all, you know, the group, the, the batteries is, is, is gone. And then the group that no longer exists. So every group is trying to sort of figure out, okay, at this, at this very moment, who should we include so we can get good information and who should we not include? So we, we, we, we feel supported and it varies from sometimes second to second, you know, it's not one of those things that happens over, uh, you know, you know, for, for two years, and then something changes.
Speaker 2 00:18:20 And it happens for another three years. It happens all the time. And I think this is a really important concept when it comes to advocacy we'll and we can talk about that a little bit later, but the important thing right now is you sort of get the idea that this is a common, you know, all groups do this all the time. And one of the things that helps, um, with this rubber bands of, you know, stretching and not stretching and contracting and retracting and whatever the other words are, is those folks who can sort of span the boundaries between groups. So those people who can sort of talk, let's talk about disability for a second, who can sort of talk disability disabilities. And those who can talk at the Sam camp can sort of talk non disabilities. I I'm being a bit playful, but hope you sort of get the idea mm-hmm <affirmative>, who can sort of translate between the two groups are a really valuable, um, thing.
Speaker 2 00:19:09 And often what happens, uh, especially in these days, is those people who are boundary standards as we call 'em in social psychologies, uh, get, uh, canceled to use a word because people think they're disloyal, right? Yes. When all they're trying to do is to, is to communicate to people outside of the group in a way that they'll understand what, what are our issues. And sometimes the, sometimes people do that, do a lousy job, and then they, and then of course they should be criticized, but it's a really hard job to do well to this sort of, uh, boundaries, spanner, you know, the person who is trying to convey the thought here, here is what our concerns are, you know, and all that kind of stuff. So that's, I hope that's helpful,
Speaker 0 00:19:50 You know, it's, it's interesting. Cause I'm sitting here thinking about what you're saying and I I'm part of, you know, some rec groups and sports groups. And it seems to me when you get these groups that have both disability people with disabilities and non disabilities and them that, and you can communicate with both, you're absolutely right. That happens. People kind of get goofy and they get testy about certain things. And I'm like, Hey, we're all supposed to be on the same playing field here.
Speaker 2 00:20:19 <laugh> and, and, and that's what makes, and, and I write about that a little bit in some of my books, but what makes for good teams, right? What makes for good and part of that is being able to sort of have those kinds of conversations, have those, um, uh, you know, and, and be able to work across those boundaries. And that's a good part of what creating common ground is. Musicians do this all the time. I I'm a musician as well. And so when, uh, I had a rehearsal this morning and a lot of what we're doing, uh, in the jazz group that I belong to is trying to figure out how four of us with very different musical tastes and very different, um, approaches can, can play together. And a lot of that involves sort of joking a little bit with each other about our strengths and our limitations, and, you know, uh, the joke of, uh, that the, uh, the bass player has about me is I see through my feet, <laugh>, you know, it, you know, I, for many people, it doesn't seem made funny, but for us it works. And, and that's what makes a group unique. Right? Cuz those kind, that kind of humor works for that group. It may make no sense to anybody else and that's okay, but it works for us and helps us, um, uh, you know, uh, build trust. And it helps us create a language that works for us.
Speaker 0 00:21:23 You have two other, what I think are, well, probably more than that, but what I think are really important concepts in the book and their trust talk and trash talk, I feel like there's a lot of trash going on lately with talking. Yes. Um, yeah. So give us some examples and, and why, or why not you do use them and what are, when it's appropriate?
Speaker 2 00:21:46 Well, that's a that's of course the, the $64 billion question, right? When, when is it appropriate? So, but let's talk about what, what trash talk is and what trust talk is mm-hmm, <affirmative> at least the way I define them. Right. Right. People may have different. So anybody who's who who's a sports fan as I am, who, who have played sports. Uh, and I currently tutor university, Missouri students who are athletes and this issue comes up all the time when I talk to them. Uh, so, you know, trash talk, they're trashing the other team, they're trying to get the other team off their game. They're they're um, essentially the definition I have is they're encouraging our team by discouraging the other team. Right, right. We're we're good. You're not, you know, we we're right. You're wrong. We're this, you're that. Okay. And you know, there is a place for that sometimes, but you know, as you said, there's a lot of that going on and I, I think there's way too much of it.
Speaker 2 00:22:42 And, and, uh, the, I, and I I'm, I hate to say this, but much of the media is encouraging it. Yeah. You know, people, media loves unresolved conflict and you know, many of us love to listen to, you know, we, we, we come on, come down on one side or the other and we cheer when our side does makes a trash talk, jive, jab, and, uh, you know, and then get upset when the other side does, you know, it it's, um, and it can be, and it can be, and often is wildly destructive. Uh, so that's, that's trash talk, trust talk is lowering the barrier a little bit, um, so that we can, um, and maybe a lot, depending on the circumstances so that we can, um, learn about each other a little bit, learn about each other's hopes and our dreams and how we, how we, and how we, how we work, how, how we work and how we, um, uh, how we dance, if you will, how we, how we do things.
Speaker 2 00:23:37 And it's not the kind of thing that's either fully trustworthy or not trustworthy at all. Right. It may be, you know, so when we're having a conversation, lemme give you an example. So when I was working on the abortion project, mm-hmm, <affirmative> the, the first thing that we did, uh, is we, we would find a pro-life person in a given city, let's say New York, cuz that was the one I worked on. We, we, we, we would find a pro-life person and we would find, and in my case, the pro-life person was in charge of a crisis pregnancy center. And then I found a pro-choice person who was in charge of religious practices of planned parenthood mm-hmm <affirmative>. So she was the one who reached out to religious leaders. Well, very different perspectives. And the first thing I asked them to do was to go out and have a C a coffee together and not talk about abortion.
Speaker 2 00:24:26 Talk about anything else you wanna talk about, but not abortion because we want them to get to know each other a little bit, you know, their families, their other interests, their, you know, whatever else they want to talk about. We encourage them to have a, you know, cup of coffee and maybe have a meal or whatever. And the idea was we wanted them to, to engage in trust talk, right? So they would, they would have enough trust that they could talk about the more difficult issue of abortion. And then once that happened, we then asked and they said, this was great. We, we wanna continue the process. Then we brought together, uh, three or four other people on each side. We asked them to bring in three or four people on their side. And we met, uh, as it happened in a, in a very, uh, sumptuous lawyer's office in Manhattan overseeing central park.
Speaker 2 00:25:09 I, it was, you know, in a snowstorm, I, I remember this night, it was, it was a, I had my guide dog and we were, you know, all soaking wet and, you know, the roads were slippery, but we had a great meeting and we talked a lot. And then, and then that, but only then did we start the actual dialogue and, and the dialogue worked in part because we got people to sort of lo uh, you know, lower their non-trust barrier or raise their trust, uh, whatever words you want to use, right. Trust beacon. Um, and that set the stage for a very successful, uh, dialogue on abortion. But you, but, and so often what happens, and this, this is one of the things that sort of disturbs me about advocacy, um, in general, and especially now, is that generally advocacy takes place, you know, uh, you know, you go in and talk to somebody for 20 minutes.
Speaker 2 00:25:59 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you can, it's hard to create a relationship in 20 minutes. It's, it's, it's doable. And we can talk about how, how we can make it more likely we can be successful, but you know, when you have such polarization, 20 minutes is not gonna accomplish much. It just isn't right. In my opinion, no, in my opinion, I think you're right. So anyway, so that's, that's trust, talk and trash talk. And I, I, there's another concept I've been thinking a lot about since the book came out that I'd like to raise as well. That's okay with you. Sure. Okay. And that's the concept of universal design and there is an article about universal design in my book, but I don't talk about it a lot in the prologue. And in retrospect, I wish I had so universal design is the idea, um, that, well, the way I'm gonna define is not the way it's usually defined, but the is the idea that those products that are made for people with disabilities so that we, we can function better are often really useful for people without disabilities.
Speaker 0 00:26:55 This is true
Speaker 2 00:26:56 Wheelchair ramps. This is the obvious one. Yes. Wheelchair ramps, elevators, elevators. Yeah. Um, the example that I I write about in my book is back in the a thousand years ago in the, in the early eighties I got for my, uh, Christmas president, my mom got me a talking clock. You hit a button that said it's child 22:00 PM. You know, whatever it was. And it's very robotic voice. I
Speaker 0 00:27:17 Have several the
Speaker 2 00:27:18 American, my, to the blind. Yeah. The American foundation for the blind came out and, and we loved it. My mom loved it too. She was, she cited and she loved it too. And within three years, my aunt bought a similar, a similar thing at Walmart. Exactly the same product, except that probably had a screen that, you know, that, that, that flashed the time as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but, and of course it was, it was a lot cheaper cuz it had been mass produced. Of course there was a lot of that kind of stuff. The other example that I often talk about is, um, technology, uh, can be really complicated as we all know, uh, and for especially folks who were, were blind and even, or folks with other disabilities. And what I found really interesting is I would be talking to folks about a, a, a specific technology hassle that made an imposer to use a certain piece of software mm-hmm <affirmative> and almost invariably the comment was that that part of the software, that website is also very hard for me to use as well.
Speaker 2 00:28:16 Ah, yes. So it was very hard for them to use. It was impossible for me to use. And so I, I, I, after that, I started saying to, uh, tech, a tech designers, Hey, think about this. Don't just think about this on my behalf. Think about this as it will make it much easier for a lot. You'll get fewer. You're like likely to get fewer, you know, calls on your helpline because they'll be because, you know, and they said, oh, we had thought about that. So that's the concept of the universal design. Exactly. And through my weird brain, it's not the way it's really defined, but for the first of this conversation, that's the way it's defined,
Speaker 0 00:28:50 But we are still doing the pledge drive and I encourage all of you who might be so inclined to please donate some of your funds to help since I donate much of my time and would love to see support come in for K F a I and disability and progress and support me, bringing guests like Peter, um, on to speak with you and Peter, I wanna go to talk a little bit about what you did start talking about when you were so rudely interrupted in, in, um, tilted. Another direction was about the ADA, um, Americans with disabilities act. Uh, this is the ADA's anniversary this month. That is correct. And you, you bring up something very interesting. And you said something interesting when you were, when we were speaking over email that you felt that if the ADA were to come up as, as a starter thing, now it probably wouldn't pass. And I do agree, but I'm, I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Why would it pass well?
Speaker 2 00:30:05 Yeah, well, I, I, I think here here's, here's my take on it. Um, so think back, you know, 32 years ago in the 1990s, uh, I was doing this a little bit this afternoon. We lived in a very different space. And one of the ways that this, the space was different is that the set held, we had, you know, we had moderate Democrats, we had moderate Republicans and that's really where the energy was. And so, you know, not always, not all the time talk about rubber bands, right. Sometimes the energy would, but, but, but, but, but you're
Speaker 0 00:30:37 Right for the most part, much more central,
Speaker 2 00:30:39 Much more centered. And you had both Republicans and Democrats, uh, you know, uh, advocating for this bill. Um, obviously president Bush was, was president George, uh, HW Bush was the president mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, um, the, uh, a lot of the advocates were Republicans and of course there were Democrats as well. And now it seems to me that the, um, it's the, it's the, um, the, the more, um, extreme on each side that are, that are driving the bus, if you will. It's the, it's the, it's the progressives, it's the arch, uh, Christian conservatives, you know, of to, you know, who don't are not used to talking to each other with any degree of respect, you know, they, they just aren't, and they're the ones who are Dr. Who tend to be driving the parties right now, you know, and it's, and you just don't have as many cents anymore. I don't think,
Speaker 0 00:31:36 Do you like, so you think it wouldn't pass today and what would we have to do, because that is a scary thought, you know, that, that passed now, or, you know, 30, some years ago and it wouldn't today, um, the idea of what would have to change with it.
Speaker 2 00:31:59 Well, and, and the way I, the answer to your question is, I don't think I, I, this is my opinion. Um, I, I don't think there's much that could be done right now to pass it. Um, uh, because, um, if for no other reason, I had this conversation with a Congressman last week because, um, the, um, it, it, it would pass the house, but I, I can't see getting 60 votes in the Senate to, to, to, uh, overcome a filibuster. I just don't see it happening. The good news is that it passed. Right. So we, you know, that, that's the good news. The, the, the challenge I think that we have now is how can we use that? And how can we sort of, you know, if we agree that this, this is the position, the place that we find ourselves in that we're in a very different place than we were in 19 90, 19 91, 19 89, when this, all this ADA stuff was, was happening, um, how, how do we change our advocacy approach?
Speaker 2 00:32:56 And that's, to me what I've been sort of wrestling with over the past, ever since I had that meeting with that, uh, disability, uh, advocacy organization, that it just seems to me that the approach that's being done has some downsides having said that I absolutely respect the work that they do, but why is it for example, that, you know, you, you read a legislation that, that these organizations want passed, and I haven't seen a Republican co-sponsor on any of these legislation for 15 years, not one, why, why is that happening? And, and more importantly, what can we do to begin to build those bridges? So we might get a Republican once in a while. So, you know, it's, it's things like that that make me wonder, I mean, it's, it's all well and good to have, you know, uh, you know, and, and what, what I often see in the, in disability organization, disability organizations is we have 60 supporters of this legislation. They're all Democrats, you know, I mean that, that's great. We have 60 supporters, but it it's gonna go nowhere because because half of the country is Republican and, you know, unless we can get Republican more Republicans drawn into this conversation, we ain't gonna get very far.
Speaker 0 00:34:11 So we
Speaker 2 00:34:12 Just start
Speaker 0 00:34:13 What's interesting is, you know, some people I've spoken to feel that the ADA has not quite kept up with what's going on now, and that there should be changes that you're right. It's so different than what it was 30 some years ago, but many people are afraid to touch it because what would happen, you know, exactly people could weaken it. And that would be very bad.
Speaker 2 00:34:39 No, I, it's a very, it's a very, it's a very scary thing. And we also have the Supreme court, right. Supreme court has become much, you know, back then, you know, it was, it was sort of central left, I think, as, as a fair way of saying it central left, it wasn't wildly left, but now, you know, from my perspective, it's, it's, it's, uh,
Speaker 0 00:34:59 Quite left.
Speaker 2 00:35:00 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's extreme, left and extreme and extreme, right. Is what it is. And there are more right than left. That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 0 00:35:08 Yes. So I, I do think that they it's like the, the more one way somebody is the more, the other way somebody pulls to try to counterbalance
Speaker 2 00:35:18 That. And, and that's exactly right. And, and, and, and the only way that the only way that can, that can, and you're talking about rubber, we're talk. Yeah. You are talking about rubber bands a little bit, you know, you're trying to stretch the band, but, um, but the only way you can, you can do that to stop that kind of thing. Cause you're right. People react from the excess of one, the excesses of one side by doing excessive stuff on the other side and it keeps going and it keeps going. And, and then of course the victim put, starts, they're doing this to us. Woe is me. They're doing this to us. Woe is me. They're sex, bullies, they're sex bullies. It's, you know, it, it just gets crazy from my perspective. And it's, it's wildly unproductive. All, all, all it's doing is, you know, is, is trash talk on the other side and not much gets done.
Speaker 0 00:36:00 That is very true. And it bothers me that we have so many constituents who are happy with that.
Speaker 2 00:36:08 I don't. Yeah. And I, I, yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 0 00:36:11 I, I thought you were always gonna say, I don't think they're happy with it, but if they weren't, they would stop voting for the same thing. Right.
Speaker 2 00:36:19 So the way I put it is they're happy enough with it. Mm. Yes. They're not wildly happy, but they're happy enough to vote, you know, for their tribe, regardless of, you know, regardless of where they stand all.
Speaker 0 00:36:31 Yes. So brings me to that idea that what, what at risk of doing a political thing? I'm I, I try to be careful, but, um, that sometimes I feel like one part of the party feels like all that's important is winning. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It doesn't matter if it's breaking rules or laws, but if you win, then that's it. And there's so much more to that. I think you lose a ton of stuff if you play that way.
Speaker 2 00:37:04 Well, one of the ways, one of the things you lose is trust, trust, big time. Yes. You know, I mean, I, I don't wanna get too political either, but there's a reason why, uh, the, the trust we had trust issues before 2016, right. 2017, but it's gotten much worse. Well, why is that? It's because the, the politicians, uh, I think more on one side than the other, but doesn't matter at this point, which side for persons of this conversation, um, you know, they've done so much trash talking that the, the parts of the country that, that sort of glue us together, you know, that, that as, as a, as a culture are sort of praying and it's, I think we live in very scary times personally. I, you know, I did need to go down quite this road <laugh>, but I think we, we need to, we need to sort of find ways to rebuild that trust.
Speaker 3 00:37:51 So I'd like to weigh in on here and say that complacency is ramp, and we really need to get people back in the game.
Speaker 2 00:38:00 I agree with that too. And why, and why does complacency happen? I think part of the reason it happens is that there's people are so discouraged with the, they
Speaker 0 00:38:07 Don't think anything will change
Speaker 2 00:38:09 That's right. And, and, and, and it's dangerous to raise your head. Have you, you know, have you ever had the experience of, of, of trying to engage in a conversation and you raise your head as somebody shoots, shoots at it? Yeah. Is that where you off to you?
Speaker 3 00:38:22 To
Speaker 2 00:38:22 Me, me and it's me. And, you know, that's a scary thing now I'm sort of experienced at it and I can, I can, I'm a little better at maybe than other people, but I don't like it anymore than anybody else, you know? Um, uh, and so it, and so the only way, the only way they complacency is gonna, is gonna, is not going to these complacent people on your side and saying, we need you to be more, you know, active. Well, they don't wanna have their head shot shot at nobody does, you know, unless you're a really driven person, there are people like that out there, but most of us wanna live sane, you know, happy lives. We don't wanna in politics and extreme yell at each other. And the only way that's the only, I, I, what I really believe is the only way that we're gonna get more political, uh, act activity is by rebuilding trust.
Speaker 2 00:39:10 And how do we do that? Well, that's, um, I dunno which time we have left, cuz we could talk with this for the next three hours. Well, we got about 20 minutes, maybe 19. Well that's that's up. So, but anyway, you can't get how we done in 20 minutes. <laugh> yeah. Sorry. No, no. I understand. Well, we're not gonna, we're not gonna, so, and please understand something. I, I am not, I don't have all the answers, the reason I wanna have this conversation and I'm the reason I don't have this conversation is I want people to think mm-hmm <affirmative> I don't, you know, I want people to think, you know, the first question is if you think things are different now than they were in 1990, then obviously we need to, our behavior needs to change a little bit. And what does that look like?
Speaker 2 00:39:47 Well, it may look like different things, different people. So lemme give a, an example of, of something that I, I thought was really interesting and not something I would do, but it was very successful. Do you remember back in 2017 when the affordable care act, uh, AKA Obamacare know where you're going? Go ahead. Okay. Was, was, was in danger of being, uh, over overturned, right, right. That office and a lot of disability, uh, uh, folks, um, protested mm-hmm <affirmative> and they camped out outside the congressional offices in their wheelchairs and they caused, uh, what do they call it? Good, good, uh, good trouble to use Martin Luther King's term. Um, and they, and they were arrested and they're arrested many times and they were, you know, they were, they were, they were nonviolent, but they were there, they were heard, they raised their voices. They, uh, you know, they, they, they caused their share of trouble and it's hard to know how much the, a, the ACA was saved because of that.
Speaker 2 00:40:49 But I'm sure it had a positive, um, re uh, contribution, you know, it, it got all kinds of media coverage. Uh, our, our, our, uh, issues, our concerns were, you know, were raised as a result. People got a sense of how the, a, the, uh, affordable care act was impacting us disabled folks. And I think that got people's attention. And, um, I was talking to one of these activists who, who, uh, was arrested several times, uh, over, over a meal. Uh, and notice we had this conversation over a meal. I say this because this was something I would never even dream of doing, you know, that's just not how I'm wired, but we had an interesting conversation about it. And, and, and that wouldn't have happened if we were, you know, at, at a formal conference table, you know, the fact that we were having a meal together and, and were relaxed, and we were having a nice, we, we had a prior relationship and, you know, he talked about why he did what he did. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I told him about my concerns. It was a very interesting and soulful conversation. Soulful is a feelings term, right. So it was both, both, both on the thoughts and feelings channel. And we became friends afterwards, you know, while we were working together on a different project, so that we made, we made need to do more of that.
Speaker 0 00:42:05 But I, I do wanna point something I'm to that out though. So yes, you became friends, but he didn't do something. I mean, he did something you may never, that that's not how you're wired, but you believe in it.
Speaker 2 00:42:18 Yes, I do believe in it.
Speaker 0 00:42:19 And so I do believe in it, but then there's the whole thing of what happens and you, and you did the whole abortion thing. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> with, that's an example of what happens when two people have to come together and work things out when one really is vehemently against it, and one is, you know, totally in for, for, for it.
Speaker 2 00:42:43 So let let's talk about, uh, there, there, there, there were reactions to that. Uh, but let's talk about, um, that abortion thing that we're talking about. So you remember, I told you about how we started the process by getting two people together, one pro and one pro-choice and how they had the conversation, how they got to got to like each other and how they, uh, uh, we got other people together. And then we had these dialogues and the goal of the dialogues was twofold. One was so people could, could sort of learn about each other and learn how they became connected with the abortion issue and why they believed what they believed and share their stories and, and talk about this issue. And it was in a respectful, safe space. One of the, one of the things that bugs me, uh, at, uh, parenthetically is safe spaces is one of these terms, derided, safe spaces. They can't handle, they can't handle themselves. They feed safe spaces. No, the, the, the, the good work gets done in safe spaces, because you can't, you can't, it's much harder to show courage unless you, unless you have some sense of safety around you
Speaker 0 00:43:43 And you can't, it's harder to be abusive.
Speaker 2 00:43:47 That's correct.
Speaker 0 00:43:47 So that's, that's correct something people are so into that. Now it seems like you need to be able to do that, or you need to be violent, or you need to, and I, I fear for, you know, all people, regardless of no disability or disability for this world that, you know, seems to be violence seems to be taking quite an uptick.
Speaker 2 00:44:12 Uh, yeah, it it's just, as I said, these are scary times and, uh, I just hope we can find a way of rebuilding some of those institutions. I mean, um, uh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna digress more than I already have. Uh, you know, I was gotta talk about the church and how that's impacting. It's a whole nother conversation. I, I do wanna, the church is falling apart too. Go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:44:31 I'm sorry. Yeah, I, I do wanna stay a little bit on the anniversary of the ad, cause I really, yes, please. A great topic. And I wanna ask, so we celebrate this anniversary every year, um, many of us, but do you feel, I don't feel like it's sub celebrated equally and I'm not talking about people who don't have a disability, because I think, uh, I would gauge that half of them probably don't know what the ADA is. If you walk down the street and ask the general person, do you know what the ADA is? You, you would obviously get some people who did, but you would, I think get a, a fairly large amount of people would say the what
Speaker 2 00:45:13 <laugh> the what. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:45:14 Um, but I think also though, now within the realm of disabilities, people with disabilities, that I think it's different with what people think of the ADA as an older class of people, as opposed to a younger class of people. And I feel like the younger class of people don't for what I see don't necessarily celebrate it don't necessarily know a lot about it. Um, and that change, I know there's, it's not a across the board thing, so I understand that, but I feel like for what I'm, I'm seeing that they just aren't as involved.
Speaker 2 00:45:54 Could you, and so
Speaker 0 00:45:56 I'm sorry, go ahead. Go ahead and expand on that. What your feelings are with that?
Speaker 2 00:45:59 Well, my, my, my feelings is a, a degree of sadness, right. Uh, you know, because I think you're right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, but I have sort of two reactions to that. First of all, my first reaction is that's absolutely normal. Right? So, um, uh, those of us, uh, who were, I mean, I'm thinking about myself, for example, I, I, um, uh, was the only blind person at, at the university I attended when I was in a college, a college, a college student. Um, but I had other people who had gone to the same university mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago that there were some people staff who remembered these blind folks. And so, uh, it made my life not a whole lot easier, but somewhat easier because they'd had positive experiences with, with other blind folks who had in many ways, much harder than I did.
Speaker 2 00:46:56 Right. And so, but I, I didn't really appreciate those people, um, who made it a little easier for me, it it's sort of natural, you know, it's, you know, we just, you know, we're young people, we're foolish. We, you know, we're whatever, uh, you know, fill whatever blank you wanna make. And, and, and of course their exceptions to everything is, as you said, mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, but, but, but, but my other question is if that's true and my guess is it probably is the question is why is that happening now? Part of it's a perfectly sort of normal psychological reaction, right. That I talked about, but part of it is we've done a terrible job reaching out to younger people and, and sort of explaining the history. Mm. Yes. You know, um, we, we really have,
Speaker 0 00:47:37 I think that's partially true. I also think though, um, there's been both good and bad changes, right. There's been a huge, huge technology change. Yes. And, and with that has given younger people with disabilities, many, many more opportunities than you or I, or anybody who's over at, over 29. Thank you for my happy birthday. <laugh>, um, thing, by the way would've had, unless we really fought hard for it or which some of thingss I did and paved the way. Um, but now like, geez, you, you can just sit, shove a little thing in your ear, um, and listen to your screen reader, read to you. You can like, go do a message on your iPhone. You don't have to worry about things like that. Like we had to worry about. So technology has changed and given people many more opportunities, but I don't, I often see, like, for, in my opinion, again, I feel like there's fewer people that I see who work, um, in high school, which I worked all through high school and I, and many people I knew who couldn't see had a job through high school, um, or at least some job in college.
Speaker 0 00:48:57 Um, I, it's not uncommon for me now, cuz I teach in the technology community to get somebody who's 23, 24, 28. And my goodness, they've never held a job. And I'm like, what? It would've just been unfathomable to me. Um, so that I think the discrimination and things like that, I think it's still there and I, I'm not sure that that's changed and I'm not sure that the outlook for people with disabilities, from the able bodied, these terms are kind of, uh, candid,
Speaker 2 00:49:34 Offensive, different. They're kinda weird aren't they, we,
Speaker 0 00:49:36 We have to label 'em somehow because you gotta know who we're talking about. So, but I feel like sometimes the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Speaker 2 00:49:45 So, and, and that, and that comment is exactly right. Because one of the things I've learned working with younger folks, um, both with, without disabilities is we think things have changed. And in many ways they have, you, you, the examples you give are of course dead on, right? Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, the, the iPhone, the technology, you can read so much more stuff and that's all wonderful stuff, but you know, I, I still work. Uh, and I work, uh, uh, as a tutor at the university and I'm still having all kinds of computer technology issues, you know? Yes. And right now I'm involved with the project with the university, trying to get some of the stuff documented so we can get this stuff changed. This has been a three year project since I've started working at the university, you know? So, um, a lot of the skills that you and I learned, um, growing up to sort of adapt to the, you know, the nondisabled world, if you will, um, are really valuable to younger folks, they just don't quite realize it yet.
Speaker 2 00:50:40 And, and, and part, part of the issue is just so we talked about they, they there's so much out there that they don't, it's hard for them to see the, see around the corner, what they're gonna be up against when they get into the workplace. Cuz most technology in the workplace in my experience is, um, often not accessible unless you're working in a disability organization. Um, but if you're working in corporate America, you're gonna have problems. You just are. I don't care if it's, if it, if it was 1990 or 2005 or today, there are certain technologies that aren't gonna be fully accessible. Right. So what do you do with, what do you do with it? That's part of what advocacy is about of course, but what do you do with it? Those are skills that I think we all need to get better at. And for younger folks who are in the workforce, they gotta get better at it pretty quickly.
Speaker 0 00:51:26 Yes. And I really wish I had a ma magic pill that taught people how to, or not, because I think there are people who teach how to advocate. I mean that I we've interviewed people on our show who teach that mm-hmm <affirmative>, but there's a difference with teaching it and having the drive to do it. And I, but
Speaker 2 00:51:47 What, but one of the things that really annoys me and we're getting a little bit off topic, uh, but, but one of the things that really, at least from my perspective, one of the things that annoys me, if you're trying to, if you're trying to get better at a skill, what's the best way of doing it,
Speaker 0 00:51:58 Doing it,
Speaker 2 00:52:00 You got practicing it. Right.
Speaker 0 00:52:01 <laugh> that's right.
Speaker 2 00:52:03 And, and you, and so the best way to, to, to teach advocacy is, is to practice it in a, in a safe space, right? Or in a safer
Speaker 0 00:52:10 Space. Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2 00:52:11 So that you, you can get better. And often what happens in with these skill based training programs is you get lectured, right? Here's how you could be a better advocate in three easy steps. And here's a PowerPoint presentation. You know what I'm talking about? I, you know, you, you, I, I sit through these things, um, as part of my work, as a change agent, if you will, and incorporate and wherever I was, and you get these presentations, like you're missing the point, you're conveying information instead of help people develop a skill, the best way to develop a skill is to practice though. Sometimes getting information is helpful. I'm not saying it's not, but if you really wanna, uh, uh, get better at a skill, you gotta practice. And, uh, and, and that's scary, right? Talk about on the feeling it's scary to advocate, especially if you don't know what you're doing. I mean, I started advocating for myself when I was in junior high, in high school. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, and, and um, so by the time I got to college and I had to do it mostly on my own, um, I, I was reasonably confident that I could do a decent job, but you know, you think it, you know, things are different now, uh, for better or for worse. And we're, you know, that's a whole nother that's, that's sort of, we're talking about now.
Speaker 0 00:53:21 So I'd like to challenge those out there, especially with a disability I'd like two challenges. Those who don't have a disability may be listening to this, learn about somebody who has one, because people who tell me, I don't know anybody with a disability you're wrong, that they just haven't told you what their disability is. There's so many people and so many hidden disabilities. Now half the planet has disabilities, but you just don't know that cuz they may not confess that to you because they are scared. Um, but get to know somebody with one and find out what matters to them or what's important to them and chances are, um, it could be important to you too. And with people with disabilities, find something you love and, and try to make it better. I realize that you can always say somebody like go make, you know, go get a job and, and make people less discriminative, but it may not be what you love. And oftentimes people do best when they try to do something they love. So yep. Find something you love and work on changing it. And, uh, with that we have just minutes left, but <laugh> do you do, are you working on anything more with it in your writing career?
Speaker 2 00:54:39 Actually, I, I have sort of taken a sabbatical with writing for, for, for a while. Um, I've, I've, I've, I've gone through a, a rough life patch and had to move twice and it's a long, sad story, which I won't bore you with. But, um, so I'm trying to sort of resettle in, I gotta find a new job. I, I sort of, my life is sort of in, in chaos right now. Um, but I, you know, I, I, at some point I'm gonna get back into writing, um, because there's a lot more to write, you know, what I realize in sort of thinking about these concepts that we talked about earlier in the show is there's a lot more to write about them. Mm. And one of one has to do with advocacy. One has to do with, um, you know, how, how do you sharpen those skills? And, you know, we, we didn't get to, how do we sharpen those skills? Very,
Speaker 0 00:55:19 No, we didn't
Speaker 2 00:55:20 In great detail, which is okay. Um, you can have me back sometime else. We can talk about this some more that's right. But cause I have, I have some thoughts about how we might do that, but, but, um, think about before I say goodbye, think, think about the abortion project that I worked on. It's building those relationships, wouldn't it be cool. And I'll wrap with this, wouldn't it be cool if each one of us disabled people with, you know, who, who want to get involved with this find, uh, somebody who is totally maybe a bit, uh, intimidated or, or hostile to the disability, uh, committee, maybe a conservative or maybe whatever and get to know them and over time create that relationship because over time that's how this is gonna change. Uh, if, if each one of us, um, and I know this is pie in the sky thinking, but if enough of us got together and, and found a person with disability and said, Hey, let's, uh, without disability, who, who sort of hostile to, or scared of us or hostile to us say, Hey, let, let's get to know each other over the next six months.
Speaker 2 00:56:20 Um, I, I think that that's, that's how the world changes.
Speaker 0 00:56:25 I think you're right. And with that, I just wanna thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. And, uh, take care and good luck with all the changes you're you're going through. That's never easy.
Speaker 2 00:56:39 Nope. And thank you for, for the opportunity.
Speaker 0 00:56:42 You're so welcome and good luck in whatever you're gonna be tackling next. Thanks so much
Speaker 2 00:56:48 And, and good, good luck and happy birthday.
Speaker 0 00:56:51 Thank you. And thank you to everyone who gave me happy birthday wishes. I so appreciate that and happy ADA, everyone. This has been disability and progress. We bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability. Topic. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of K F E I or it's board of directors. My name is Sam. I've been the host of this show. Thank you so much. Shelene dolls my research woman. If you wanna hear us, we are podcasted and don't forget to pledge please. K F a i.org. We've been speaking with Peter Altra, who is speaking with us on how his book, uh, writing elephants, creating a common ground where contention rules can help people unite and advocate. Thanks so much for listening. Goodnight.
