Disability and Progress-March 13, 2025-NaviLens!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI.org. [00:00:31] Speaker B: It'S thank you for joining Disability and Progress where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Thank you so much for tuning in. Charlene Dahl is my research PR woman. Hello, Charlene. Hello everybody. Erin is my podcaster. Thank you, Erin. And I want to remind you if you would like to be on our email list, you may email me at disabilityandprogressamjasmin.com and we will stick you on there and let you know what's coming up week after week and topics ideas would be appreciated as well. This week we're Speaking with Orin McAllister. Orin is talking about an interesting new thing called Navi Lens and thanks so much for joining us, Oren, all the way from Spain. So a different time zone that always. Time zones are an interesting thing, aren't they? Please give us a little bit of history about you and how did you come to Navi Lens. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so absolutely. So my background is a bit scattered all over the place. I originally studied in business, business studies, but then I, I moved to London. So I studied that in Dublin, moved to London to work in international education. So I worked in study abroad for an American university and I was there for quite a long time. Then I eventually moved to Spain and taught English for quite some time. And then, yeah, this opportunity arose to work for an exciting company like this where I could engage with lots of people, work with organizations, associations, globally. And I have a bit of background as well. I mean my, my, both of my parents have or well have vision impairment. My father, who is going to be 90 this year, he is registered blind and he has age related macular degeneration and he's also registered deaf as well. And my mother also had sight issues due to a small tumor that she had in her brain. It made her have tunnel vision. So this kind of added to the, I don't want to say enthusiasm I have for my job, but it's certainly given me that little bit of extra push and understanding of different kinds of types of vision impairment. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you have background, right, and you have experience with the actual disability. And that's not always the case that somebody who comes aboard these things and that's part of the thing that I feel like, I feel that really, truly adds to the company because you can have people with, quote, good intentions and they get excited about something and they want to do whatever, but if you don't have the experience and haven't kind of Actually had the experience with the disability or with somebody with a disability that's close to you, sometimes you can miss things. You know, the idea of what it could all do for a person or what it could, you know, the potential of it. I'm curious, I'm curious to know what Navilens is and what its mission is. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, you know, Navilens, I won't go through the whole history of Navilens, but Navilens, the idea of it started way back in 2012 when our organization originally worked helping larger organizations solve their logistics and strategic issues that they had internally. But my CEO, Javier PETA, who also has, he has relatives who have vision loss, he wanted to do something a little bit more. I'm trying to find the right words for this, but something a little bit more that's actually helping people, helping everyday people with certain, in certain different ways. And although it's not really a new issue or a new problem. But one of the things he thought about was, well, how do people who are blind and vision impaired, how do they be independent in unfamiliar surroundings? And this can be anywhere, in transit, in malls, in hospitals, anywhere really. And so he thought, well, how could we make signage visible for those who cannot necessarily see them? The original idea was thinking of putting a QR code on there. But the issue with QR codes, codes, although they are great and now they're being used all over the world, QR codes are not very accessible for people who are blind and vision impaired because you need to know exactly where it is, you need to get quite code, you need to then frame it, focus it, and then you need to, I don't know, on my phone I have this little yellow bar that sometimes jumps around the screen. Not very accessible. So they then decided to start working with the University of Alicante here in Spain to see if they could try and develop a new type of code. And in the end, after five years of research and development, development and all different kinds of designs of the code, we ended up with our Navilens code, which is an interesting looking little code. Many people have sort of compared it to like Space Invaders. They've seen it around going, what is that? Quite a strange thing, but it's a five by five matrix of little squares that are made up of four different colors, which is black, cyan, magenta and yellow. Those colors basically work the best because they are the extremes on the color sphere which gives us that contrast for our signage to be able to be detected with many of the advantages that it has, then it's surrounded by a little black frame and then a white frame. All of these elements are all very important for the detection of the codes. And that's what it kind of looks like. But our technology as a whole is basically that our application, the Navilens app, can then detect this code from more than 12 times the distance of a QR code at wide angles as well. So within a 160 degree scope. And it can also be detected on the move. So again, you don't need to know exactly where the code is and you don't need to stop and try and focus on it. It's all done automatically. And you sort of interact with the application. It provides you with sounds to tell you that the actual application is scanning. This is very useful for people who are site impaired because they then know, okay, it's working. So all I need to do is just move around until the application itself can detect any codes within the vicinity. [00:07:24] Speaker B: We'll cover more of that. Ye I'm wondering if, I mean, for most sighted people, I think know what a QR code is, but for anybody who is visually impaired who hasn't really had experience with QR codes, the problem also besides that they're hard to find, meaning that they could be anywhere. They could be on the top of the bottle, the bottom of the bottle, the side of the bottle, which side of the bottle, who knows, they could also be on the box that the bottle came in and then they're not on the bo. So it's just, I think, very complicated to find them even if you are sighted. And if you're trying to find them, if you can't see, good luck. Just there's a general guess area that happens. So yeah, so that's. Does the navi lens give the same information as what's in the QR code? [00:08:25] Speaker A: Well, more or less. So this was always sort of at the very one of our fundamental reasons for providing the code. The code is there to provide the exact same information, plus maybe a little bit more where necessary, but the exact information that is visible to those who are cited. So if it is being used for sort of wayfinding in a, in a, I don't know, in a, in a train station, for example, it will indicate, okay, there's a sign that's there and the sign is giving information and we provide the exact same information. So it's. If it's saying to you go left or to the left, you will find the cafeteria or you'll find the ticket office or turn right for the platforms, go Straight ahead. For elements such as the bathroom, we just say put one navi lens code there and that can provide all of that information together. Obviously, there's other elements as well that don't really have signage, such as elevators, escalators, stairs. You wouldn't have a sign there. But again, those are elements that we like to indicate to our clients that, you know, put information there, put a sign there that will allow people to know what, what objects, what facilities and what locations there are around them. Now, when it comes to products, we like to provide the exact same. We call it the customer journey. Because everything on the product packaging tells you a story about that product. It gives you all the ingredients, tells you how to use it. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:50] Speaker A: It tells you who to. Right. In case, you know, it's a dangerous chemical or something, it would tell you any information like that. And so we make sure that all the information is then provided within the Navilens code as well. The code can contain lots and lots of information, including hyperlinks as well, that can actually take you to pages where you can find even more information. And you can add up to 15,000 characters of information into Navilens, which we always recommend not doing because that's quite a lot of information for anyone to have to read through. However, we also have now ensured that the app works very well with screen readers and voiceover so that it's easy for you to kind of skip through the information. [00:10:30] Speaker B: I see. So you can use the navi lens on computers. Can you use it on both iPhone and Android platform as well? [00:10:41] Speaker A: So yes, it's ideally for sort of mobile devices, so that would be. Yes, iPhone, Android, tablets of any kind as well. It's more difficult with the computer, but. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Again, you're not mo. [00:10:53] Speaker A: You have to carry that around with you. Right. Yeah, it works on everything. You know, as phones get more and more advanced, so to do the. The advantages of using navi lens so the cameras get even better, so the distance detection is even better. I mean, just to give you an example of, of the distance detection for every. I'm going to use. I'm going to try and I'm very used to centimeters and meters here, but I'm going to use inches. So for every, for example, one inch of a navi lens code that can be read up to six feet away, which when you're talking about it doesn't really sound like much, but when you're in that space, that's actually quite, quite a good distance for such a small little code. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Right. So I guess I feel like this is such an interesting area that people dive into. Talk a little bit about how the navi lens code assess in real time. So let's say I am looking for the restroom, the bathroom. How would it direct me? [00:12:00] Speaker A: Okay, so within one of our great sort of features that we can use as a way finding solution for interior locations at the moment in various ways. So again, if there's signage that's indicating, you know, the bathroom is a certain way, we can use the signage that's there and continue with codes at other signages which is, which are pointing in that direction to give you that information. And then of course having one sign on the door. But another great feature is that when there is tactile paving, which in a lot of public transport spaces now you will find we can actually create a system where once you enter into the building, you scan the first code and it will offer you all of the destinations in including for example, a restroom. And you choose that location and through the tactile paving it guides you to decision points. And then at that decision point it will then continue directing you in the correct direction until you arrive at the, the bathroom itself. So our code can actually provide contextualized information depending on the angle that you actually arrive at the code. So we can. There's a number of different ways. If it's smaller facilities, it's quite simple. You know, it's just adding the code to the sign, giving you that general orientation element. And then once you get, once the bathroom is sort of within sight, the navilens code will be able to detect that code and guide you there. And in fact, we're also creating. I don't know, I think I'm allowed to talk about it, but we're also creating a bathroom, a free bathroom restroom kit that can be used internally in restrooms as well so that you can use these smaller codes. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Stalls and sinks. [00:13:44] Speaker A: This is it. Stalls and sinks and hand dryers. Is it an automatic hand? A paper towel? Is it a towel? All of these elements. Because what that will do is it will eliminate the need for anyone who. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Is blind or vision impaired feeling around. Oh, that's my world. The bathroom is a scary place for us. [00:14:06] Speaker A: I know it's. I can only imagine it's something that, I mean, I'm not going to take all the credit, but I'll take a little bit of the credit that I have been pushing for this for quite some time and I work very closely with a lot of the users of our technology. So again, I don't like that word Users, I just find it a bit. I don't like it. But for the sake of this, I'll say the users, this is something that they have kind of mentioned to me a few times, but how nice it would be. And this is an important part of what we do. We like to listen to people who are blind and vision impaired to find out, well, what do you need? Do you want? And then we take that to the drawing board and we go, right, how can we change our technology? How can we change this to adapt to that and keep relevant to what the, the end user will actually need? So things like that are very important and I'm very excited about it. We're better beta testing it at the moment and I'm very excited about being released. [00:15:01] Speaker B: That's so fabulous. I will tell you as somebody who, well, well, I'm letting out a small part of myself. I personally tried to avoid public restrooms because of that very thing. And I don't like the whole, let's see where they've put the soap today thing, you know, because every restroom is different. And if for all those who, if you have gone into a place like Las Vegas, for all those who've been there will know that what I'm going to say is not an exaggeration. And for all those who haven't, you can just imagine, like going into a restroom in Las Vegas is like going into an extremely large apartment or maybe a small house. Like everything is so spread out and it's huge, it's just very large. And to try to find even which way the stalls are, sometimes it's in a very circular thing. So are they on the right or the left or both or. So it does get an interesting thing. I think that's an amazing idea that you've done because it is truly some place where sanitation is really important and who likes to touch everything, you know, to have to do that to find it. So thank you. [00:16:29] Speaker A: No problem. Pleasure. And actually just a little add on. Sorry not to, not to speak over you, but I know that even during the pandemic this was something that actually much information about. You know, don't touch anything unless you want to buy it. With the Navilens codes being used on product packaging, it allowed people to be able to locate where that product is. Know that, yes, that's the corn flakes, that's the 500 gram box. And then actually will help you locate that exact product. So it will guide you right to the product so you're not having to feel around and feel different. Boxes and shake them and listen and smell. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Oren, I guess I'd like to know currently what locations are using Navi Lens. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Absolutely. So I suppose originally being a Spanish company, our natural sort of growth span sort of spawned from Spain here itself. So we started working Barcelona as just doing a test, and this was our first ever test to kind of check, will this work? We want to make sure that people, you know, we take it out into the big old bad world and allow people to test it. And just from that one testing of a few bus stops, the feedback was so great that that's whenever it just started to grow and grow. So in Barcelona, in Madrid, Valencia, in most of the. Actually all of the major cities and most of the larger towns, they now have Navilens placed within the transit system. And in some places like Murcia in Spain, where Navilens, which is Navy Lens home, we also have the Navy Lens codes placed on the street signage as well. So there was a big growth here, but of course that we started to grow outward. So we're actually, we've been working in the United Kingdom, in Ireland. Ireland, which is where I'm from, we just had a really an amazing implementation in a new train bus station there. But we're also growing and growing, and now we're really starting to grow quite rapidly within the US So we have a current project that's ongoing in New York, which is with the subway and bus system, and that actually has received federal funding to help expand Navilens across the transit network there. So that's really exciting. We've also got implementations in Boston, in Seattle, in San Antonio, in Austin, in New Jersey. I'm going to run out of places. Philadelphia, Los Angeles. So we've started. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Well, you better come here. [00:18:58] Speaker A: I really want to. I've been to Minnesota once and I really want to bike. [00:19:03] Speaker B: I want to let everyone know that if you're interested in playing with this, Navi Lens has made it really nice for you to be able to do that. You can download the app on your phone for free and you can also print out some codes, just, you know, experimental codes that you can place around your house to kind of give yourself practice with pointing them at your phone. And I will admit this was a little bit of a learning curve for me at first. And you do need to kind of get an idea of how to do that and how to swipe back and forth and, you know, find what you're looking for. As far as for the Navilens code, I'm wondering, you know, what I found great is it gives you that text and audio. So like it gives you sounds that kind of cue you to say, hey, there's a code. And it also tells you, gives you direction on where the product or place that you would be is. So if you put it on a thing on your counter or a place on your wall, it will say something like ahead this many feet or left? Or it'll kind of, it will really direct you on how to get there. Do you have, can. Do you have any sounds available that we can kind of hear what that sounds like? [00:20:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. Okay, so I do have the main initial sound. So when you open Navi lens, it kind of has a whole series of default settings that does make it quite sort of suitable for use straight away. You don't need to kind of do too much to it. I do agree. I think nice to kind of practice a little bit. We do have those free codes that anybody can sort of create a sort of personal experience in their homes and their friends homes and their workplaces. But yeah, so when the Navilens app starts scanning and this was very important, that there was some kind of a sound so that when people are using it and they couldn't necessarily see that the code or that the application was scanning, they would at least hear it. And that was a very unusual sound. It kind of sounds, I say, a little bit like a submarine. If it's okay with you, I'm just going to play that. Hopefully, hopefully this does come through. Just let me see, let me know if you can hear this sound. So this is the initial sound when you know that Navilens is actually scanning. And I'm going to just put a code in front of it and you're going to hear what happens when, when it detects a code. [00:21:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:38] Speaker A: 70 centimeters away. Welcome to Ben Station. Next departures, 1524, destination Jegensdorf, platform 23. 1530, destination Wetdorf, platform 24. 1530 destination BLBN platform 1015, destination street, platform 8. 1531, destination. Did you hear that? You're listening to information and you've heard enough. You just give the phone a little shake and it will stop talking, which is quite a nice feature, especially when you're doing something like this. Now, the interesting thing is that code that I just scanned is from a railway. I believe it's a railway station in Switzerland or it's a transit in Switzerland. And the information that it was giving to you is actually in German. But the mobile phone itself detects the language of your mobile device information in your own language, which is really quite cool because it does then again allow you to travel, to experience the world and go to places. And it will also help people who are maybe like myself, sort of first generation, living in a new country. I try to speak Spanish but you know, I really need help sometimes. So when I scan my bus stop outside, I can see that real time information, but in my phone in English, so it will tell me how many minutes away the next bus is, what the bus number is, where it's going to. So it's really cool information, but that's how it kind of works. There's lots of sounds, there's also some haptics involved there as well. So the mobile device will actually vibrate for you to indicate. So this can be very useful for people with sight and hearing deficits. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:23:22] Speaker A: So there's many ways to kind of, you know, it can help so many different people. [00:23:26] Speaker B: So so many things are popping in my brain here. So first of all, I feel like, like we've had, even on this show, we've had other people come on to talk about signage and things and it feels so much like something that is so needed, but it just never grabs on. And so I'm wondering what makes navi lens different and what will you do to ensure it's its stay power? [00:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's something that's vitally important for us. And this was actually something that a lot of our initial users were saying to us is that, you know, so many applications have come along with lots of promises and then, you know, it sort of reaches a limit and doesn't go any further. That's something that we're constantly doing. We're constantly looking at how do we improve as technology improves, how do we improve? We need to stay relevant. So we're always trying to get feedback from our users. Now what our technology does compared to things like QR codes, we have that distance reading, we have the automatic language translation. There's also a, A, a safety system as well. Our codes can't be hijacked like other kind of codes can and you know, false put in there. All of our clients have access to the information through our platform, which again is fully secured and all that information. So we make it really relevant. We, you know, our technology does what it does, it solves that last few feet, few meters, few yards, wayfinding problem. So actually being able to find that particularly specific location right down to the inch, whereas a lot of the GPS now, I don't want to make any claims or Say anything out of, out of sorts or out of that I shouldn't say. But I know that with GPS systems it can never really get you to that final, final, final location. It never gets you right to the door. And I know that myself from having to use GPS living in another country. So what we do is, is it will take you to the exact spot. So even though GPS can get you to the general area, what Navi Lens has is complete accuracy. Plus the information that is contained within there is the exact information that, that already exists for those of us who are cited. So there's no way of misunderstanding or miscommunication of information. It's all the exact same. And we also have a facility with the translation element, which again is quite unique for this kind of technology. That the translation element, if for example, a phrase or a term was used in one country, but the translation itself isn't exactly correct, you can go in and actually change that translation without affecting the original data as well. Then another thing that we have done, and this was again at the behest of our initial users, was that they wanted to ensure that everybody could use this. So although we have Navilens, which is text to speech, we also created sort of a sister application which is called Navilens Go. Now Navilens Go provides more visual information. So this can be. [00:26:41] Speaker B: I was wondering what that was. [00:26:43] Speaker A: Yeah, so it could be for sighted users or people who are low vision, who don't really require the audible that they would actually prefer to see information but in larger text. Navi Lens Go was all about, you know, allowing people, for example, tourists who are visiting your great city, they could get that information in their language. So if you have a, a busload of Japanese tourists who come to say, a museum and you have the codes there, they will receive that information in Japanese. So it kind of opens up a whole new world to a whole new group of people. But this is all about our inclusive element. Plus with Navilens Go, you actually have the facility to add sign language videos. You can add pictograms and easy to read text, which can be very helpful for people who are hard of hearing, people who are neurodivergent, people who have cognitive requirements. So we sort of tried to open it up to as many people as possible. And there's even a child friendly feature which allows you to add, you know, museums can provide very sort of high level sort of language. And with the child, the child's feature or the children's ability to put information in, there is a little bit more suitable for them. And it can also be used for indicating step free access to certain locations. So in some buildings, buildings, the accessible entrance is not always the main entrance to the building. So with navilend, you can actually indicate where the step free entrance is. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to make this usable by so many people. And even here in Valencia, the local transit authority, supported by the local government, are actually putting up posters indicating that if you want to access this information in real time, download navilens and scan. So we're actually trying to encourage lots of people. Sorry, I can talk a long time. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good. That shows excitement. I want to also let people know that, at least for the end user, Navi Lens is totally free, which isn't always the case by some of this stuff. You can download the app for free, you can use it for free. So I presume the person who's paying for this is the companies that are posting or willing to use the Navi Lens codes in their places or the brands that are putting them on their products. So how do you convince them that this is a big deal, that this is something that's necessary to make everyone equal? [00:29:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that is something that was always very important to us, was that people would never, the users of our technology would never have to pay anything. Always. It would be free. And that's why we also created the free codes so that people could use those at home. We also don't ask for any personal information as well. So. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a huge thing, by the way. Thank you for that. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, you don't need to sign up. I mean, there is an option if you do, if you do want to receive the free codes, we would need your email address because we email them to you. [00:29:47] Speaker B: But that's, that's a minuscule amount of personal information which often people dive much deeper, wanting. [00:29:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. And, you know, I think with companies themselves, you know, there is a big drive at the moment for accessibility, like making facilities, making products accessible. And, you know, we don't push anything. We tell people what we are, what we do. We let people sort of find, you know, that what we can provide is actually quite unique and quite good. But what we would say to organizations is that, you know, technology is the way forward, basically. I mean, I would, I don't want to again, generalize, but for most people now who are blind or vision impaired, I mean, technology is kind of a connection to the world through a very various amount of apps and how mobile phones have developed to help people. And we sort of, you know, advise them that by adding our technology, it basically it provides that equality of information, allows people to simply find that product and buy that product. And, you know, and I think companies are now realizing as well is that this is. There's been a lot of accessibility worked upon for a lot of things, the different types of disabilities. But with sight loss, always a very difficult one for companies to kind of find a solution what best. Because there is braille out there that people do use, but it's not as commonly used or as much used as people would imagine it is. So we just advise that by using this, you're allowing people to interact with your product, your facility, your location in a way that gives them their independence back. And this is our whole point, is that we want people who are blind, vision impaired to be independent, to be able to do things without having to ask for assistance, without needing assistance as much as possible. And that's kind of what we say. And you know, in the US Transit is growing product packaging. Now Kellogg's over here in Europe now have navi lens codes on all of their products. Every single one of them, including Pringles, which I only learned last year, is actually part of the Kellogg's range. But even more and more brands are now realizing it's like there is a big. There's a big market out there. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:32:12] Speaker A: For. And to allow people to be independent and to actually want to then spend their money on products that are actually willing to be accessible. That is, that really means a lot to a lot of people. And, you know, we are living in an age where it can be a little bit difficult. There's not always big budgets for accessibility really. But, you know, when it comes, the benefits that are there really do outweigh the costs. [00:32:41] Speaker B: So I want to just pause a minute and ask. I'm not sure that you know this, but the, the idea of hearing that Kellogg's has the navi lens codes on all of their products in Europe, but not here, I have to admit, slightly offends me. So where do they like, how come they don't just do it overall? Why wouldn't they have just the blanket? Okay. All of our products now are going to come out with navi lens codes. It doesn't matter if we're in Africa or if we're in Europe or know. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and I have to give it to Kellogg's that they have already started the process. So they've got already Got four of their products, at least four that I'm aware of in the US Market that have the Navy lens codes on there. Again, you know, because we're based in Europe, it was a more natural progression to know. [00:33:36] Speaker B: I understand that, I understand that concept. But it surprises me that companies themselves like don't think outside of this, that, oh, well, we're putting it on in Europe. We should do everywhere. We should just have them come out. It would, it to me, it would make sense that they just come out with a code on them rather than having to think of which market has the codes, which doesn't, and etc. Just should be a blanket. That's so. [00:34:06] Speaker A: I agree, I agree. And you know, I think one of the sort of small. Again, I'm just being playing devil's advocate here is I do know that in different countries you have different, different ingredients and elements. You know, there's certain ways that it does need to be approached. But I, I, I, I'm so glad that Kellogg's already started that process. And there's other brands as well. Yeah, I don't know if all detergent and even Entenmanns, which is a, a bakery which is actually putting Navidens codes and some of their products. You know, it was a slow start here again in Europe. You know, we were lucky that the people from Procter and Gamble were like, wait, what have Kellogg's done? Okay, what are we going to do? And now many of their products from sort of diapers like Pampers and Pantene and even Old Spice and Nivea, organizations that got brands like that are, are also doing it with frozen products. I mean, it's really growing. You know, I've always seen the US to actually be leading in this. So it's kind of nice for us leading a little bit ahead of you guys. [00:35:07] Speaker B: I'm sure there is a little bit. Aha. Here's where we are. I, I totally agree. Hats off to you guys for doing that. [00:35:16] Speaker A: You know, but you have to remember the American market is a big market. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:20] Speaker A: We're. That everything is all the, all the T's are crossed and the eyes are dotted and that we, you know, that, that the work is going. But I do know, and I really do want to defend Kellogg's is that, you know, this is a conversation they are, they're really thinking about anyway and so hopefully their progress is going to move. It's just, I think once Kellogg's a big brand like that, like even with Coca Cola, we, we worked with Coca Cola. Over here in Europe as well. Like, products like that would be amazing. And actually very soon we're going to have our first alcoholic beverage over here. [00:35:52] Speaker B: Oh, boy, here we go. Well, and I'm by no means trying to insult Kellogg's. I think that's great that they did that. I'm just saying that I would really love for brands to think globally. I know there's always different ingredients or different rules about how different countries do things. But think about the accessibility for all, not just if it comes from your eyes. Because we are living in a world where everyone's out there and everyone's trying to do the same things. Shop, do their laundry, pick out their products, take a bus. I want to talk a little bit about how Navilens is integrated into the public transit system. How do you guys do that? [00:36:46] Speaker A: Okay, so there's. Well, there's a number of ways. I mean, it works in most of these normal functions of indicating where that particular location is, be it a train platform, would it be a bus stop? So again, it can work as simply as that, as allowing you to identify where is that transit location. How do I enter into this train station? How do I get into the subway station, for example? Is this an accessible entrance? Are the elevators working? So we can provide all of that information and allowing people to first of all find it. And then what we have done as well, in like places like stations and underground metros, all that kind, we can actually create then a kind of a way finding, orientation solution. So it's used to help people find where do I enter the barriers, where do I buy my ticket, where do I get out? Are there bathroom facilities? Is there an accessible entrance? Again, as I mentioned before, are the elevators, and if not, where do I need to go to find a working elevator? Because again, you know, quite often people can be quite worried about taking stairs or escalators. They do want that access. Then what we can also do then is we can link it in the codes into the real time information. So when you arrive at that train station, you arrive at the bus stop, the bus station, you can actually get that real time information and know where the bus is going from, how, how many minutes before it leaves, where it's going to. And also a facility like that is great because we have a way of. You have a history of codes you scan in the application, but you can also create favorites. So imagine your local bus stop and you're like, okay, I wonder if it takes me five minutes to walk to the bus stop. Let me check. You can actually Check from home by going into your favorites and clicking on that code and it will tell you the real time information from your bus stop so that you know, I'll wait. The bus is 10 minutes away. Okay, I've got time to get to the bus stop and make my bus on time. Then what they're also doing is adding the codes actually onto the buses as well because we all know you're waiting for 20, 25 minutes for a bus to come along. Three arrive at once. If you have a code bus, you know exactly where that bus is and where the entrance onto the bus is. Again for trains as well, where is the entrance onto the train? And you can extra information like mind the gap or I'm not sure I know mind the gap is in London. I can't remember what it is in the subway system in New York. But you get my idea that it allows the entrance. In Australia, they're using them to indicate if that particular carriage is an accessible carriage. So if there's actually a wheelchair ramp or if there is a step free access to the cars, you can provide loads of information like that. And then internally you can again link it into the real time information so you can actually get information about what's the next stop that's coming up, how far away you are. You can also indicate where the sort of accessible seating area is. Elements like that. So it can be used in so many different ways within any transit system. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Okay, Charlene, did you have any questions? I'm baffled. It's just big, it's exciting. A lot's going to go on. I'm really kind of giddy about it. I want to bring up one thing and I know this is something at least for me. I feel like there's a lot of things that come on your phone and that's great, I want to, but I always think of how we could improve this and how we could have it more safe for us, more easy, that we don't have to have a complicated thing. And one of the things that I have noticed is that you know, you're out there and you're turning your hand and you're turning your phone, you have your phone out for all to see and you're trying to find this navi lens code. Excuse me, but what I'm wondering is are you guys working with anyone with the idea of maybe having it so it could pair with like a glasses or something? So that. And what can we do as users to help you? Because I feel like there's so much proprietary stuff that Happens where if you linked everything together, you would just have this amazing world that it wouldn't matter what product you're using, but that you could go from A to B to C so seamlessly. And so if you guys were able to connect to, let's say, metaglasses, that's an example. There are other glasses out there. Other. You could easily have that. So a person could do what a sighted person did, use their head to turn and look at something. They wouldn't be putting their cell phone out there. They wouldn't be risking somebody snatching it or dropping it or anything. That can happen, as I so well know, as I dropped mine once. So I'm wondering what your process is of being able to work with somebody to make things a little more seamless and also help advise us as users what we can do. [00:42:30] Speaker A: I am so glad you brought up this question, and I have so many answers, but I will try and keep it short because as you know, I do talk a lot. So, okay. As the system is, yes, you need the camera of the mobile phone to be able to detect the codes. A lot of our users have been very clever and, and, and do that in very different ways because, of course, you know, many people who are blind or vision impaired, they do either tend to have a white cane or they have a guide dog. So you're sort of really sometimes would feel like you need three hands in order to get around. If you're also maybe in some sort of a motorized wheelchair or something like that, it just makes things very complicated. So for the moment, what a lot of our users do is they, they will put the navy like lens either in a pocket with the camera sort of peeking out, or they will wear a lanyard around their neck with a clear pouch with the camera facing out. Or you can get like clip on mobile phone cases that you can clip onto your being. But again, it doesn't really eliminate that possibility that someone could run up and get your phone. Now, I know that we all live in that kind of an age. I know that even though I look around and I constantly say, I wish people would stop. You know, so many times in the city, people almost walk into me because they're looking at their mobile phone in their hand. But I do feel, and again, I don't want to be just making a blanket statement, but unfortunately, people who do tend to steal mobile devices, they do tend to try and pick someone who might be a little bit more vulnerable maybe. And so, you know, there's no, there's nothing that holds them back from that. And so that is something that has been really strong in our minds. So we have actually, we have started working on wearable technologies. So this was a very important thing for us and we are working. I know that our one for sure. It's called arcs, which is an, which is called arx and it's a headset that uses the camera, an external camera. And what it can do then is you leave the phone in your pocket and as you move your head around, the camera will give you all the information, so it will detect the codes, give you that information. This is an area that we are ready and willing and able. We've got an amazing, amazing technical team. We can adapt our technology to work with all wearables. The only, as you mentioned before, is the proprietary thing. These organizations, their property. So we can't just make it work. We need them to allow us to make it work. And I know what you mean. You know, nowadays, you know, with the, the meta glasses, it's difficult. Again, we need to get in there. I do hope that these, all these companies that are producing all of these kinds of wearables are going to open up their technology to allow all applications, especially accessible applications, to be able to use in conjunction with them. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:19] Speaker A: So we know and work. We're just, again, we're just needing to have that first conversation to say, let us be a part of your system and we can do all the work and just let us. Yeah. [00:45:30] Speaker B: I do hope that they realize that, that using an already made technology is so much faster and better than recreating the wheel and will open up your platform to have more users say, oh, I need this, this will work with this. And I use this all the time where somebody may not use glasses all the time. I want to encourage. And this is not just you, this is all people out there. One of the things that drew me to the meta glasses is that they look good. They don't make you look geeky or like, you know, stick out there. So for all of you that are increasingly creating something that you want us to wear and to sport and to have really prominent looking, either make it discreet or make it look good. Because we care about how we look too, and we want to look just as good as the next person. So that's my statement for the air. For all the people that are making anything accessible that they want to wear or to do this amazing thing, I think this has a really great potential and I'm very happy that it's free for us. Are you offering any Training to help us encourage our business owners to do this, to accept this kind of thing or what can we do? And also where can individuals go to learn more about Navilens? [00:47:16] Speaker A: I mean one of the best places I suppose to go and check out more about Navilens would be on our YouTube channel, which is the Navilens channel, which offers videos in multiple different languages actually. But there's like an English video section connection and it gives you a full tutorial. What is Navilens? What does it do? Why is it unique? And also shows how it can be used in various scenarios like in transit and also in museums. So there's lots of information out there. I am always on hand, I'm always trying to do as many presentations and work with as many organizations as I can. Like just yesterday I had a live presentation with people in Chicago with an organ, an association actually in Chicago to be able to, you know, inform people a little bit more about Navilens and how it works, how it can benefit people and also trying to get people to take, take advantage of all the, the free facilities as well, like the free personal codes. And we also create these free kits as well for certain types of organizations, educational, medical facilities, libraries, events and associations themselves, themselves. And the bathroom kit will be coming soon. So we always encourage people to kind of. I could talk about navi lens until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it really is getting out your mobile phone, getting it on there and just playing with it, testing it. And on YouTube channel, I mean there's lots of images of the codes. You can be just scanning the codes as you're watching it and you can be getting real time information from a bus stop in Barcelona one minute or a tram stop in, in, in Australia another moment or you can be in the bus station in Singapore. So it's a really great way to kind of learn about navulance. But I am always on hand. I mean any opportunity for me to even do something like this or to talk to any groups, to do any kind of training, we're always there, we're here to support the, the end users of our technology. And, and then again for organizations again we, I don't know, we're out there, we're working, we're just growing, we're showing people how it works. We're letting people see how it works and hoping that they will then realize the benefits of what we can do. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Well, this is really quite, quite amazing. I'm really impressed and I want to encourage you guys to do more with reaching out, especially on our buses in transit, I really feel like you said oftentimes, especially at a busy bus place, there's five or six buses that come somewhere and trying to find, you know, 7B or whatever, you know, good luck running in and out between buses and trying to figure out where your bus is and where this could be a whole big thing. And I hope that the arcs, you know, that you. You do more with that and that maybe you can make it so that the cameras are stylish and wearable that we can. We can be able to use. I'm wondering, are there any plans for anything additional to be added to Navi Lens? Is the ARCS the thing? [00:50:34] Speaker A: No, I mean, that's. Well, that's one of the things I think that really is the. The big thing at the moment. You know, that's the way forward. And it does, again, it allows you to be discreet while out doing the thing that you need to do. Other areas that we're also looking at, we have started working with a pharmaceutical company here in Spain. And what we are doing with that is helping this pharmaceutical company eventually get away from. I don't know what they're called exactly, but the little paper piece of paper they put inside medicinal packaging, which is full of instructions. It's really, really difficult for a lot, even myself as a sighted person. I need 20 minutes to kind of get. Oh, dear, where is that information that I need? I want to know how many of these I need to take and how often. So we started working where within a Navilens accessible QR code. So this is a QR code, but it's accessible by adding the Navilens technology around it. And it allows people to then access the website where all the information is held. It allows you to then kind of interact with that, and it also then eliminates the need for that paper inside. So again, it's quite environmentally friendly as well. But also on that medicinal packaging, we've developed a new way of using our technology when. Because now lens, you know, if you were to put a new. To get the. Let me. Let me go back to the beginning, because I am five minutes. So expiry dates. Expiry dates, yes, especially on medication. So we've developed a system which is putting an avilance code next to either a data matrix or a QR code. And when scanned together, it will give you that expiry date of that particular product. So it allows you again to have that vitally important information. And that's something that can also grow out in. Into other products as well that have expiration dates. And the last thing I will say, and I will, I promise I will be quiet, is we're, we're going to be. I can't give you too much information, but we are going to be collaborating with another accessible application which is more about the GPS element. So it's going to be combining both of our technologies to allow people to find the location and then get to that exact final destination. So we, we're looking at how we can open up the journey. We can allow people to sort of use our technology from much further afield than within 100ft. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Excellent. I want to encourage you to put the expiration date thing on food as well, because that's a big deal. Also, I hope that the navi lens codes will not only go on the boxes of things, but if there are bottles and stuff in there, they'll go on the bottles as well. As often when you take the bottles off of out of boxes, the info is gone. Okay, well, that wraps it up. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate this, Orin. I wish you best of luck and I know I'll be pushing them and using them. So thank you so much. [00:53:43] Speaker A: It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it. [00:53:47] Speaker B: You're tuned to KFAI 90.3 FM, Minneapolis, and KFAI.org, this has been Disability and Progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of KFAI or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Charlene Dahl is my research PR person. Erin is my podcaster. Thank you for listening. This show runs by you. You may email me and [email protected] with comments, ideas about shows and learning what's coming up. We've been Speaking with Orin McAllister. Orin was talking about Navi land. This is KFAI 90.3 FM, Minneapolis, and KFAI.org Excuse me. Thank you for listening. [00:54:33] Speaker A: Pleasure. Thank you so much again. That was really nice. I hope I was able to come across okay. [00:54:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think it was great. [00:54:41] Speaker A: If you ever have anyone who kind of wants to speak to me or wants any more information, always. Please feel free to just share my email with whoever would like it more than happy to help. [00:54:51] Speaker B: Definitely, we'll do that. And, and I have ideas. So, yeah, I think I'm really excited and I'm glad to see that this type of thing is so strongly in other countries and I hope that it starts really coming more strong here. I think that says a lot when a company can do that. So thank you again, again, SA.