Speaker 1 00:00:59 I am greetings. Thank you for joining Disability and Progress, where we bring you insights into idea, ideas about, and discussions on disability topics. My name is Samm, the host of this show. Thanks so much for tuning in. Charlene Doll is my research team. Hello, Charlene. Good evening everyone. Erin. Erin is my podcast person. Uh, I can say hello to him cause I know he won't talk back cuz he is not Mike ta. Hi Aaron. And thank you for doing the podcast. If you wanna be on our emailing list, you can email us at Disability and
[email protected] and we will put you on, we'll also put you on our listener list and if the same goes true for, if you would like to suggest a topic for the pod for the radio show, you can post all your suggestions and, and say what you'd like to be hearing about any disability topic is, is, uh, fair to, to request? So this week we are talking to Ginny Kim. Ginny is the, um, managing attorney Will, and she'll be talking ab about the organization, disability rights advocates and what they've been up to and different maybe, uh, suits that are going on and things like that. Good evening, Jimmy Ginny.
Speaker 3 00:02:17 Hi.
Speaker 1 00:02:18 Hi. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 00:02:21 Thank you for having me. Good evening.
Speaker 1 00:02:24 Uh, let's see. So first of all, I wanted to start off by, can you give us a little bit of information on who the organization Disability Rights Advocates is and a little bit of history of them?
Speaker 3 00:02:38 Sure. So I work for an organization called Disability Rights Advocates. We were started in 1993. Uh, we currently have three offices in the United States. Um, first the Berkeley California office, which is where the office started, Uhhuh <affirmative>. We then expanded to New York and we have a third office in Chicago.
Speaker 1 00:02:57 Excellent. None in Minnesota,
Speaker 3 00:03:00 <laugh> No.
Speaker 1 00:03:01 We need to do something about that.
Speaker 3 00:03:03 Yes. But we do work nationwide. Um, so we're not constrained in doing work. Um, just where our offices are. Um, our organization does what's called High Impact litigation, um, which sometimes means class action, but basically it means that the litigation that we do, um, affects a whole group of people or affects, um, change. And we advance the civil and human rights of people with disabilities. We've done over 600 cases since we were founded in 1993, and they sort of touch on all aspects, um, of, of life including healthcare, emergency preparedness, transportation, education, voting rights, housing, et cetera. Um, so we do a wide range of work and we do work across the mission.
Speaker 1 00:03:49 Can you tell us like how you came to the organization?
Speaker 3 00:03:52 Sure. Um, so I graduated from college. I'm dating myself <laugh> in 1995. No worries. Um, <laugh>, so a, a little bit after the ADA was effective. Um, and I was looking for a job after college, um, to decide whether or not I wanted to go to law school. Uhhuh <affirmative>, um, and saw a position open at Disability Rights Advocates, which at that time was only, um, two years old. And I applied for a legal assistant position and I loved the work that I did there. Um, I got very involved in the cases. Um, I loved litigation, um, and I really, at the time that I applied was on the fence about going to law school. And my experience at D r A was amazing, um, and it really, um, drove me to law school. It's a reason why I went to law school, ah, um, <laugh>. And then I decided that I wanted to do disability rights. So from that point on, um, after I graduated from law school, um, I worked in disability rights at different organizations and law firms. Um, and I've been doing it ever since.
Speaker 1 00:04:50 So do you feel like you, I mean, did you have any, uh, history that helped you kind of navigate the Disability Rights advocates?
Speaker 3 00:05:02 Um, so I didn't come in with a history of disability rights. Um, but, you know, when I joined the organization, I really sort of began to, uh, understand, um, the barriers that people with disabilities, um, face. I, I I can say that I am, um, an immigrant. Um, my family and I immigrated to this country when we were, when I was young. Um, and so there's a lot of similarities in terms of marginalization. And I, I do understand that I'm a person of color, I'm a woman of color. Um, and so I understand marginalization and, um, you know, I, I saw a lot of the similarities in the different civil rights, right. Um, disabilities, the last of the Civil Rights movement. Um, and I began to understand and appreciate, um, the things that people with disabilities were facing. Um, I will say that, you know, after I graduated from law school, um, I spent, um, years about 20 years at various organizations and law firms, Uhhuh <affirmative>, um, and I rejoined Disability Rights Advocates in December, 2022. So I'm pretty new to the organization or rejoining it. Um, but I have worked with the organization in the past,
Speaker 1 00:06:03 But really 2022. 2022. Yeah. But you had that experience earlier, so you kind of knew. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:06:11 And I've worked with the, the organization as co-counseling cases, and so I was very familiar with the organization.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 So the term to me like disability rights, like encompasses so much, you know, that really does, can you talk a little bit about what it means to you, especially as an immigrant?
Speaker 3 00:06:32 Um, sure. Um, so to me, disability rights means securing equal rights and equal opportunities for all people with disabilities. And the important part of disability rights to me is that people with disabilities are making decisions. We're not making decisions about people with disabilities, but they're, um, incorporated and very much, uh, involved in making those decisions for themselves. Um, I do think that disability rights, um, sort of is related to the concept that barriers in society are rooted in ableism. And so that's where it comes from and that's, um, sort of how I view disability rights.
Speaker 1 00:07:12 So it's interesting because you started not too long after the ada,
Speaker 3 00:07:18 Correct?
Speaker 1 00:07:19 Uh, I'm just wondering, it's a little loaded question, but I I'm just wondering if the ADA has really helped. I mean, I, I know they have, you know, things that, that you're supposed to do and not supposed to do. But, you know, people certainly had jobs before the ADA who had disabilities. Do you feel like the ADA has strengthened us, and do you think it needs to be changed?
Speaker 3 00:07:49 Um, so that is a little bit of a tough question. It is. I definitely <laugh>. I definitely think the ADA has helped. Um, there's still a long, long way to go, right?
Speaker 1 00:08:00 Um,
Speaker 3 00:08:01 There weren't, you know, if everyone embraced, um, the concepts of the ADA and there was no discrimination world, we would, we would not have a job. And so we would have nothing to do. But that is not the case. Um, I think that there have been strides towards, um, improving, um, and, and understanding, um, the barriers that people with disabilities face. But we are nowhere near where we should be. Um, I will say that when the ADA was passed in 1990 and enacted in 1992, um, in the early years of the ada, the courts were looking at cases very narrowly and cons, ensuring them so that a lot of people with disabilities were not protected Uhhuh <affirmative>. Um, but what the courts were saying, um, was that, you know, someone had a disability, but they use glasses or they use medication, um, then they're no longer considered disabled <laugh>. And so, cause of that, um, oh
Speaker 1 00:08:55 My,
Speaker 3 00:08:56 You know, we didn't even get into the great part about the ada, which is this concept of reasonable accommodations, right? So if you're not even disabled according to the courts, then you don't get into this whether or not you, you should get a, um, accommodation. Right? And so, um, because of sort of those narrow cases that the courts were, um, deciding, um, there was what's called the ADA Amendments Act in 2008. And what that did was that it expanded the definition of, um, a person with a disability. So that things like, um, what's called mitigating measures, so medications or hearing aids or eyeglasses, and those types of things aren't considered, um, in the definition of a person with a disability. So that,
Speaker 1 00:09:38 As it should be,
Speaker 3 00:09:39 Exactly, that greatly opened up so that there are more protections for people with disabilities. But, you know, I, I think we're very far from where we need to be.
Speaker 1 00:09:48 How does disability rights advocates decide what if they're gonna take a case or not?
Speaker 3 00:09:57 So there are a lot of different factors that we consider when bringing a case. Um, obviously, you know, our resources within the office and whether or not we can staff a case is important mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we consider the impact of the case. Um, you know, what would the ramifications of the decision be? Um, we consider the venue of the case, um, and what the case would look like. We consider, um, a lot, you know, a lot of different factors we consider, um, considering venue. For example, we might consider if there are state laws that have parallel claims or just federal, um, laws that we would use, um, you know, clients and who our clients are, um, and those types of things.
Speaker 1 00:10:38 So the, um, the thing I've seen recently was there's, there was several cases brought against the United States Air Force, um, and that this was regarding with discrimination against, uh, several deaf or hard of hearing employees. And some of the things I, I wonder if you just kind of talk about that it went with, that they were used, that they were denied really basic things, and I wondered if you could talk about that a little.
Speaker 3 00:11:10 Sure. Um, so in 2020 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we brought a class action against the Air Force in a forum called the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Um, and so because these workers were civilian workers that work for the Air Force, they're, um, they're considered federal, um, in the federal employment sector. Right. And so that's why we brought it in the E E O C. Um, and these were brought on behalf of death civilian workers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and also applicants and former employees. Um, and our, i our estimate that's, they represent about 700 deaf civilian employees and applicants. That's a lot throughout their lot. There's a lot of, um, deaf civilian employees and applicants. Um, some of the issues that we challenged were the fact that these employees, applicants and former employees were not receiving American Sign Language interpreters. They weren't getting access to video phones. They weren't getting access to cart or captioning.
Speaker 3 00:12:08 Um, and they were really having a hard time with ga getting basic accommodations. Um, so for example, some of our clients, um, you know, had a hard time getting video phones, so they couldn't use, um, they couldn't make phone calls. Um, they had a hard time getting interpreters at staff and trainings, um, or presentations. And so these are sort of basic things that they really wanted access to. And the Air Force has a huge budget. They have a 190 billion annual budget. And so the fact that they can't provide interpreters for their, uh, employees who are deaf and hard of hearing is, you know, it's, it's horrible. Um, they should be able to do that with such a large budget.
Speaker 1 00:12:49 So, <laugh>, I'm, I'm sorry. This just hits me weird because it's even to me more basic than that, it's like, okay, so what part of this did you not think they were gonna need when you interviewed them and hired them?
Speaker 3 00:13:01 Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 00:13:02 So I'm wondering, like, was there any discussion on what they thought their needs would be, or, or, I mean, and I'm presuming this is just a couple, that this is many hundreds of, of deaf and hard of hearing people that contacted you and said, Hey, we're not getting this. It's not just a select few.
Speaker 3 00:13:22 Right? That's correct. I mean, um, there was, you know, 700, like I said, there were 700 employees of, um, and applicants of the Air Force that are deaf. And so, I mean, I, I agree with you. Like, what were they thinking? Um, you know, someone who's deaf will need an interpreter, um, will need access to video, phones, will need access to these basic things on the job. Um, and so, you know, there's questions about, there's a lot of, lot of questions about, you know, who was supposed to provide those accommodations and confusion about whether or not it's sort of at the base level or if it's a larger issue beyond the base.
Speaker 1 00:13:55 So this is a, a federal thing.
Speaker 3 00:13:57 Correct.
Speaker 1 00:13:58 I, I'm a happing hard time wrapping my head around this because, um, this should be just a no-brainer. I'm wondering, it, it feels petty that they're saying we don't know who's responsible for this. I don't really believe that, first of all, <laugh>. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 3 00:14:15 I don't either <laugh>, but
Speaker 1 00:14:17 Even more so, it's kind of like, so did they just hire people to fill a quota? Did they, I mean, what was their mindset when you, when they're being talked to or, or, um, spoken with? Like, what was their mindset? Is it really just that they're saying it's confusion?
Speaker 3 00:14:38 No, I, I mean, I, I wish I could tell you what their mindset has, uh, is or has been. I mean, I will say that, you know, the Air Force has been, um, you know, has been sort of fighting the case. Mm. Um, and so I don't know what Wow.
Speaker 1 00:14:53 Their really
Speaker 3 00:14:54 Response is, um,
Speaker 1 00:14:56 <laugh>, geez, I'm sorry. This is
Speaker 3 00:14:58 Like he and me. It's a basic accommodation, right? Yeah. They should be provided automatically hearing, right, right. Ways with deaf and heart of hearings shouldn't have to ask for an interpreter No. For baby things. Um, they should be provided automatically. Um, that's something that someone's gonna need. Um, so I don't know what they're thinking. Um, I, I honestly wish I could tell you.
Speaker 1 00:15:18 So, so I wonder, um, this feels like, first of all, it's shocking to me that this is happening with the United States Air Force. Like it's such a big, big organization that, that really surprises me. So my next question's, thoughts are, are there other people with different di disabilities that are being affected by no accommodations or very few, and, you know, because, and, and, and are you finding that other very large, you know, corporations or, or government entities or whatever are doing the same thing?
Speaker 3 00:15:59 Uh, so first I wanna addresss the fact that, I mean, I think that you're shocked that the Air Forces doing this. Um, I am surprised but not shocked because we have many of these cases, um, where people with, um, disabilities or in particular people who are deaf and hard of hearing aren't getting the accommodations that they need. For example, we've had a case against ups, um, for not providing accommodations to their deaf workers. We currently have a case, um, against the Tennessee Department of Corrections. We're not providing interpreters, um, and other accommodations for, uh, people within the facilities. We have a case against, um, Providence Hospital System in, um, Washington, which is the largest healthcare system in Washington, um, for not providing, uh, services to people who are deaf in the hospitals and clinics. Um, and, and these are patients who aren't getting the services they need.
Speaker 3 00:16:56 And so I don't think it's, it's not just an issue that the Air Force is facing. I think it occurs in all different spheres of life, unfortunately. Um, recently we heard of a case against FedEx, which we were not involved in. Um, but there was a multimillion dollar judgment for a worker who was deaf and didn't get accommodations on the job. Um, this is a single, single worker. Um, it's not a class action, um, for a worker who do not get accommodations on the job. Um, and recently the federal agency, which investigates complaints of employment discrimination, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in January, um, released guidance on, you know, the accommodating people with hearing disabilities mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so I think there is an uptick in these types of cases, and people are, um, complaining more to the E E O C. Right. Um, I think this problem, unfortunately, um, and has existed for a long time, um, and I'm glad there's more attention that it is being brought to the issue. Um, but it, this is not unique, unfortunately. Um, and I think that I'm hoping that other people will realize what's at issue and be able to sort of bring their issues forward.
Speaker 1 00:18:12 So I go back to the A D A I, I mean, I'm quite sure that they're saying you must provide reasonable accommodations in a, in a job situation. Yes,
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Correct. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:18:28 And so can these entities just look at the 80 and say, yeah, no, <laugh>, that they're not reasonable accommodations? I mean, I, I do. Are, are there reasonable accommodations defined?
Speaker 3 00:18:46 So there is ada, which is the federal law, and many states have their own state laws, which prohibit, um, discrimination against people with disabilities in employment and in other settings. Um, and so for an employee or an applicant who is, um, disabled and needs an accommodation, um, the process is usually that they would have to request an accommodation. Um, and the employer, uh, has to provide that accommodation unless it's what's called an undue hardship. And that's really a high standard. Um, so, and it, it is sort of fact dependent, right? Uh, depending on what the accommodation is. Um, but barring any kind of undue hardship, then the employer generally has to provide that reasonable accommodation. So for someone who's deaf or hard of hearing, that could be a sign language interpreter, um, for somebody, um, with another disability, uh, physical disability, it could be, for example, modifications with desks or modifications, um, with, uh, office furniture or office placement. Um, for somebody with a print disability, it could be a different accommodation. But the ADA applies to people with disabilities, um, all types of disabilities. Um, physical mental mobility. Right. Intellectual. Um, and, and really, you know, the touchstone of the ADA is this concept of reasonable combination. Um, and, um, employers are supposed to provide that accommodation. Um, and unfortunately, a lot of employers don't provide the accommodation. Um, and there is a lot of, uh, litigation or a lot of, um, work <laugh> in sort of securing reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities.
Speaker 1 00:20:34 Do state laws supersede federal?
Speaker 3 00:20:39 So federal laws, um, it depends on the state. Um, like for example, in California, um, the state law is usually more generous than the federal law. And so the federal law is a floor, and the state law can be, uh, more generous in some ways. I don't know what the policy,
Speaker 1 00:20:58 So, so if, if, if a litigation was happening in California, would they go by the state law or would they go by the federal?
Speaker 3 00:21:06 So usually when we have litigation in our states, um, and there is a companion state law mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, would raise both federal and state claims. And, and there's some, there's some differences in the federal and state laws. Um, for example, in California, there's, you know, there's, uh, people can have access to more damages in certain situations than in federal law. Um, in California, for example, um, the laws apply to smaller employees, uh, smaller employers. Whereas in federal law, um, you are required to have, um, 15 employees in order to be covered. So for someone that works for an employer that's less than 15 employees, then they may not be covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Speaker 1 00:21:52 Oh, really? That's interesting. <laugh>, yes. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:21:56 But in California, you only need five employees. Mm. So those are some of the differences, um, in the state law versus federal law, at least in California and in other states as well. There's probably differences
Speaker 1 00:22:12 When you go to litigation. Let's just take the Air Force, um, the Air Force piece, just because you've, we've kind of opened it and talked about it so people have an idea. What, can you talk us through how you do it? What are the steps that people do and, and how you work through that?
Speaker 3 00:22:37 So, um, if your question is how we start a case, um, what usually happens is that we will usually get contacted by someone who is experiencing a type of discrimination, right? So, for example, the Air Force case or any other employment discrimination case, someone would contact us and say that, you know, this is what's happening. I work for the Air Force. Um, I'm not getting interpreters, Uhhuh <affirmative>, um, I'm not getting sign, you know, I'm not getting captioning. I've requested it. And then we'll get more information from that person. Mm. Um, about sort of, you know, have you requested it? When did you request it? What was the response? How often do you request it in those types of things, right? Um, we'll also wanna know whether or not it's, uh, a issue that's affecting more than just one person or, you know, do they know other people that have the same issue?
Speaker 3 00:23:25 Um, and then we will do our investigation. So if you know more than one person will has a issue, then we will talk to as many people as we can about how many people are being affected by this barrier. Um, so in the case of the Air Force, we've brought it as a class action, and we wanna make sure, um, when we bring cases as a class action, that we have to meet certain requirements. Um, it's not a given that we will be certified as a class. There are certain requirements that we have to maintain in order to, um, be confirmed as a class action. Um, one of those is nu what's called numerosity, which is that we have to have enough people who are being affected by the same policy. So that's some of the things that we're looking at. Um, we'll look at, you know, what policies are written, you know, are there written policies in place for an employer?
Speaker 3 00:24:12 We'll wanna see that. We'll wanna also see, you know, how is the policy applied? Um, even though there's a policy, is it sort of ad hoc? Is there a place that you can go to request an accommodation mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, is there a person that you would go to? Or is it sort of, you submit an accommodation and nothing happens? And all those things are very problematic. Um, but we would spend some time, um, to make sure that, you know, everyone is being affected in the same way, um, and do our investigation that way. And then once we sort of have done the investigation, then we will make a decision to file our case. Um, and then once we file our case, then um, we will, we will serve the case, and the other side gets an opportunity to respond to the case.
Speaker 3 00:25:02 Um, and then at that point, the case moves forward. Um, and then in the life of a case, we would enter what's called discovery, which is that we would try to get information from the other side. Um, so we would, you know, submit document requests. Um, we will ask them questions about their policies and practices. Um, we will ask them for documents to be sent to us, and we could do what's called depositions to get at some of the issues that are being raised in the complaint. Mm-hmm. Um, the other side also has an opportunity to ask our clients, um, for information, um, and to understand their claims as well. So that's probably more information than, than
Speaker 1 00:25:42 You No, that's good.
Speaker 3 00:25:43 About the, that's good life of a case. Um, but that's sort of like beginning stages of a case, and then the case will sort of move on. Um, and then we will, there are opportunities to bring motions, um, with the court or opportunities, um, you know, to progress as the case goes on. Um, the end result is usually a trial or a settlement of the case.
Speaker 1 00:26:05 Jenny, I wondered, um, so you get all through this, is there a percentage of cases that go to trial? A percentage of cases that get settled out of trial? Is the, do you know the numbers?
Speaker 3 00:26:23 I don't know the numbers, but I think nationwide, most cases settle. Um, ah, and yeah, that's just the way that works for most cases. Um, but we do bring cases to trial as well.
Speaker 1 00:26:34 And then do you have follow up to make sure that they are getting accommodated?
Speaker 3 00:26:40 Yes. Um, so especially in our, in our cases we have what's called monitoring Uhhuh <affirmative>. Um, so we, we think that's almost as important as the settlement itself. So, um, we will make sure that absolutely what the other side of the defendant agrees to, um, they're actually doing exactly <laugh>, and we will, and I mean, if we reach a settlement and then we kind of left and just sort of walked away, then we would never know if they're actually living up to their obligations.
Speaker 1 00:27:03 Right.
Speaker 3 00:27:04 Um, so monitoring is a very important part in our cases. Um, and we monitor the case, um, to make sure that they are living up to their obligations. Um, and that's very important.
Speaker 1 00:27:15 And when you take a case, do you do it? I mean, are the end users receiving payment or just change?
Speaker 3 00:27:25 Um, most of the time, uh, we do what's called injunctive relief cases. So cases where we bring changes to policies and procedures, um, sometimes there are cases with damages involved. Mm-hmm. Um, but for, for the most part, um, it is injunctive relief changes. And I, I will also say that it, I probably didn't mention before, is that we don't charge our clients for, um, the services. We are a non-profit organization. Mm-hmm. Um, and we get paid usually, um, as in other civil rights laws, um, by the other side.
Speaker 1 00:27:58 And I, I don't mean just change. I mean, that's, that's a big, huge part of it. It's a, it's a real major part. I'm just saying that sometimes I, I suspect people want some kind of monetary, um, part to it at times.
Speaker 3 00:28:15 Yes. And that's correct.
Speaker 1 00:28:17 Um, let's see, Charlene, did you have anything that
Speaker 4 00:28:23 If somebody wor works somewhere and they're finding that they, they're not getting their accommodations, say, uh, um, a person with a visual impairment needed a, a screen reader, how do, and the, the company is saying, we're not doing that. Uh, what, what's my steps? How do I get in involved with, uh, your organization to fix that?
Speaker 3 00:28:54 Uh, so we would, so you could call our organization, um, I will say that we don't do individual cases, so, um, we may not be able to help on an individual basis mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but we can give you a referral, um, if it is an individual situation, ah, um, if it's a wider sort of more, uh, bigger than an individual case, then we will be happy to investigate. Um, but we can also refer you to organizations that do cases on an individual basis. So for example, if someone who is um, or has a visual disability and needs an accommodation, we can refer them to an organization that does specifically that. Um, and there are organizations that have websites that have sample letters that you can use to request an accommodation. Um, and you can talk to folks who will help to advocate for you to request an accommodation or to advise you from behind the scenes. Right. This is what you would do to request an accommodation. Um, this is a language that you should use to request an accommodation because not especially current employees, they don't necessarily wanna sort of be out there with an a lawyer. Right. <laugh> Right. I agency in that way. Can't
Speaker 1 00:30:03 Imagine
Speaker 3 00:30:03 Why that's super awkward. Right, <laugh>. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, we would, you know, so organiz organizations out there would help you, like, this is a language you should use to request an accommodation. You can, you should do it in writing, right? If you can't just to keep a paper trail, or this is a documentation you, you should provide, um, to your employer so that the employer knows exactly what the accommodation is. Um, or you don't have to disclose your disability specifically, um, to get an accommodation. You just have to let your employer know enough, um, for them to know that you have a disability, not your specific diagnosis.
Speaker 1 00:30:38 Oh. Hmm. I'm wondering, did the litigation numbers, like did they change, did more people come to you during the pandemic? That was a big time for a lot of people. I know some people quit their jobs, some people maybe got laid off, some people, I mean, a number of things happened to switching from working to the office from to at home. Uh, there's such a big change there. Did that change with how you guys were notified and, and how often?
Speaker 3 00:31:09 Um, not necessarily. I mean, I think the issues that were brought to us were different than before the pandemic. Um, but I think in terms of numbers, um, I don't know that our numbers changed significantly in terms of people contacting us. Um, I will say that we get a lot of contacts about different issues and which we, we love, um, cause we wanna know the issues that are out there. Right. Um, but I don't necessarily know that the, uh, numbers change any.
Speaker 1 00:31:36 So when you're getting, um, requests to take a case, uh, you said you kinda weigh, like if you feel like it will, if you will, um, if it will do well or if you'll be able to make, I guess I, I want more clarification. How do you know if a case is good enough to go somewhere?
Speaker 3 00:32:01 Um, I don't know if the word is good enough. I mean, I think we have to weigh a lot of different things. Okay. Um, a lot of it is resources. Um, so for example, do we have a lot of cases that are keeping our staff busy? Ah, and if so, who's gonna stop the case? Um, so that's a really important issue for us because we only have so many people who can work on a case. Um, we will consider things like whether or not we can get other attorneys to work with us on a case. So co-counsel for example, um, that obviously helps ease a burden in terms of resources on a case. Um, so, you know, the resources is a, is a big question on how we staff cases and can we staff a case? Um, and can we accept that case because obviously if we accept the case, we are going to, um, pull, put all our effort into it.
Speaker 3 00:32:45 Um, and we have to make sure that we're able to do that. So a lot of it is sort of balancing what we're working on at the moment. Um, and then trying to figure out, you know, is this a case that can be brought now or has to be brought now versus like, is it a case that we're thinking we need to investigate first, um, and sort of get more information and consider before we can actually file something. Um, so a lot of it is about timing and all that. Um, and you know, there's lots of different considerations about whether or not we and other organizations take a case. I mean, I, I don't say that, I wouldn't say that we're unique in that way, but a lot of legal nonprofits have to weigh a lot of factors, um, in making a decision about accepting a case and being able to go forward with it. Um, and certainly, you know, a lot of it has to do with the case law as well. Right. We we're, you know, if there are bad decisions from the Supreme Court that are coming down, which happen all the time mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right?
Speaker 3 00:33:37 We have to be aware of that. Um, and they are not looking so good for us all the time mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we have to, you know, we have to look at the law in the state and we have to look at the federal law. Um, and we have to look at all of that and, and consider these questions before we can actually take a case.
Speaker 1 00:33:52 How big of a staff do you have?
Speaker 3 00:33:55 We have about 20 attorneys on staff and we have, uh, 10 additional people. Um, so we have about, you know, other people would be litigation assistance and paralegals. We have a communications and development office, but we are pretty small staff. Um, concerning the breadth of work that we do and the fact that we work in three different offices mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we're able to accomplish a lot given our small staff, but everyone is incredibly hardworking and very committed to the issues. Um, and that's why we're able to do the breadth of work that we're able to do.
Speaker 1 00:34:28 What do you see for at least the immediate future for people with disabilities? I'm curious to know cuz you guys obviously watched the Supreme Court, you obviously politics probably pays, plays into this. Um, tell me a little about that.
Speaker 3 00:34:49 Yes, so the Supreme Court is very important. Um, it, you know, it's
Speaker 3 00:34:57 Hard to figure out what they're gonna do. Um, they haven't been so great to us in a lot of ways. Um, but we also look into the circuit courts to see in the different circuits, um, what the courts are doing there. Um, but you know, it's kind of a big question mark. I mean there are lots of things that we both in disability sphere and in other issues that a lot of us care about, um, that are not going our way right now. And so I think we do have to pay attention to that very carefully, um, as do a lot of other nonprofits, um, and to make sure that, um, we can anticipate sort of what's coming down the pike and we know what to expect to the extent that we can. I mean, I think we're, we all have to deal with, um, decisions that we were, uh, not anticipating and that's hard.
Speaker 3 00:35:42 Um, but we try to anticipate what we think will happen in certain cases and be prepared for that. Um, I will say that we are part of a larger disability rights association, so Bar Association, um, which is comprised of people with, uh, working on disability rights cases. And so we have a great network of folks who are doing work on behalf of people with disabilities. And so we feel very connected to that community. Um, we often share ideas and resources and sort of what next and you know, how to deal with unanticipated cases and how to deal with issues that we, um, didn't anticipate at the time that, you know, we brought a case. Um, so we have a very good supportive network in that way. Um, and I'm very thankful that we're part of that network.
Speaker 1 00:36:25 You talk about the circuit courts, but I presume they can always appeal and go to the Supreme? Yes.
Speaker 3 00:36:33 Mm.
Speaker 1 00:36:34 Or is that not mostly need
Speaker 3 00:36:36 <laugh>? That's, uh, it kind of depends on the case. I mean, there are a lot of decision, there's a lot of, um, sort of factors as to whether or not a case can be appealed and whether or not it should be appealed. Um, so it's, you know, unfortunately not as easy as one would think, um, in terms of that, um, question. And you know, sometimes it's our side of doing the appeal, sometimes it's the other side doing the appeal. And so, you know, sometimes we get great decisions in the circuit courts and then the other side will appeal it to the Supreme Court and then the Supreme Court, you know, makes a decision on whether or not it wants to take cases as well. So even though we may wanna appeal it to the Supreme Court or might another side might want, wanna appeal it to the Supreme Court, I mean the Supreme Court can only hear so many cases.
Speaker 1 00:37:15 Is there a timeline to when the case must be resolved? Like could it go on for years?
Speaker 3 00:37:21 Um, it kind of depends. Again, it kind of depends on the case and the judge. Um, and you know, some judges are very sort of strict about having, you know, a deadline and having a trial date set, um, at the outset. Um, some judges have a little bit more wiggle room in that. And so it kind of depends, you know, some cases they will try to what's called put a stay on it, so put a hold on it while the parties try to negotiate some kind of relief. Or while there, if there is a pending case that might, um, affect, uh, the case that is at hand, then they might put a stay on the case for that reason. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But there's a lot of reasons why, um, the litigation might not be active at a certain time. Um, and so, you know, it kind of depends.
Speaker 3 00:38:07 <laugh> again, it could be very short, it could be very long. Um, there are motions that can be, you know, filed, um, within the life of a case that can decide some issues so that, you know, the issues that you would first bring, um, as part of a case may be narrowed or, um, you know, there are different motions, um, that could be pending with the court that the court could sit on for a long time as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I wish I I could say like it has to be to be resolved in like three years or year or two years, but it really all depends on the courts. Um, and some courts just have a lot of cases and they can't, you know, they can't hear cases or they can't set cases for trial cause they're backed up, you know, they might be like setting trials in like three, three years or something like that. Oh geez. And so even though you're maybe you wanna bring the case to trial really quickly, um, the court may not have the time and the resources to hear your case until a couple years down the line.
Speaker 1 00:39:03 So you said if they, when you win a case, the you're, you're the people that you are, um, supporting don't pay, but the other side pays. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:39:14 Yes. I would think that
Speaker 1 00:39:16 That would kind of be an incentive for them to hurry up and settle. Does that work that way or not so much? I could see how the big places could hold out.
Speaker 3 00:39:26 Um, so the, you know, civil rights, the way that civil rights laws, um, were enacted, um, there was what's called a fee shifting provision. So it's not just Americans with Disabilities Act, but um, all civil rights laws. Um, so what that means is that if the person that brought the case is successful, then um, the other side has to pay the fees of the successful sides. So even either through trial or through settlement. And so that is an incentive to, you know, that is an incentive for the other side. So they have to, you know, the other side needs to consider sort of the case and whether or not that's something that's part of the calculation and settling case or bringing the case to trial is that they may be on the hook for the attorney's fees and costs of the plaintiffs in the case. Um, and that's similar, um, to other civil rights laws. And that was sort of one of the things, um, one of the, uh, areas, um, that were considered when these civil rights laws are passed in addition to, you know, changes in policies in addition to damages, um, attorney's fees. Another thing that was, um, part of the enactment of these laws.
Speaker 1 00:40:36 Did you have another question, Charlene?
Speaker 4 00:40:38 Well, I'd like to know if you can tell us one of your success stories, <affirmative>.
Speaker 3 00:40:45 Sure. I mean, I think today we've been focusing on, um, we've been focusing on employment cases, but I, I'm happy to talk about some of the other work that we do at Disability Rights Advocates. Um, sure. For example, we have been doing, um, work throughout the nation on sidewalk access. Um, we have brought cases, um, we have a current case in Baltimore for sidewalk access. We have brought cases in the past, um, against Long Beach, Philadelphia and New York for sidewalk ca for sidewalk access because this is an issue that people have been contact contacting us about. You know, if you have a physical disability or mobility disability, um, and you can't leave your house or you can't get, um, to somewhere because the sidewalks, um, are not accessible to you or the curb ramps are not accessible, um, you can't get integrated into the community that way.
Speaker 3 00:41:38 You may not be able to get a job, you may not be able to do your errands, you may not be able to, um, you know, visit with family and friends, um, just like non-disabled people would do. So that's, uh, an area that we've gotten a lot of, um, complaints about, and we have, um, you know, we get complaints about that all the time and we have an investigation in various cities about that issue. Um, I will also say that, um, you know, both are welcome to call us and talk to us about, um, certain issues that they're facing. Um, we're more than happy to talk to people even if we can't help you. Um, we're happy to talk to you about, um, various issues that you're facing. Um, we've also done work in the voting rights arena, for example. Um, we have a case, uh, we settle a case against, um, the in in Indiana for people with print disabilities who weren't getting access to, um, weren't being able getting access to, um, vote, being able to vote, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 00:42:44 And so we reached a settlement on that issue as well. And so, um, we, we've done cases in the transportation area, um, the subway system in New York. Um, we have other cases that are ongoing as well. Um, so there are a lot of different areas that we have reached in terms of our litigation. Um, and, you know, when we bring litigation, I think one of the important things that we're doing is making, um, the public aware about these issues that people are facing, um, which we think is an important part of our litigation. Um, it's the education and advocacy that we're doing. Um, so again, if folks wanna call us, um, we have a website that you can reach out to, um, d r a legal.org. Um, it has our phone number, it has an email address, and we're more than happy to talk to you about if issues that you may be facing.
Speaker 1 00:43:34 Can you give us that website and, uh, phone number if there is one?
Speaker 3 00:43:38 Sure. Um, the website is d r a legal.org mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'll give you the California office number, which is 5 1 0 6 6 5 8 6 4 4. We also have an email address, which is
[email protected]. Um, our website also has information about the types of cases that we have brought in the past mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and we have information press releases that we have issued in our cases so that you get a sense of, um, the different issues that we are, um, facing and, and litigating.
Speaker 1 00:44:22 This is really fascinating. Um, I really appreciate you coming on and is there anything else you'd like to leave us with?
Speaker 3 00:44:30 Um, I don't think so. Thank you so much for all the work that you do, and I appreciate, um, that you have this radio show and that we are able to be a part of it.
Speaker 1 00:44:39 Thank you. Um, yeah, I've let us know when <laugh>, when there's another big, big thing that's going on, or, or, uh, I, I'm, I'm very interested to know how this Air Force case settles. I'm presuming you'll win this one.
Speaker 3 00:44:57 Um, we're hoping
Speaker 1 00:44:58 <laugh>, I, I, I certainly hope you will if you don't win this. Yes. It really scares me for the <laugh> because this feels like this is such a easy thing. Um, yes. Certainly for them to even do, let alone I'm surprised that they're, they're wasting the money. Well, wait, it's the Air Force. I'm not surprised, but <laugh>, but I, it kind of like, nobody has come and said, Hey guys, you know, we're, you're, you're throwing away a lot of money on this when we could just spend the money to, to do this and, and it would probably be much less than what they're spending to do this.
Speaker 3 00:45:39 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:45:39 Litigation
Speaker 3 00:45:40 Stuff. I, I think you've sort of hit the nail on the head, which is that, you know, litigation is expensive and, um, you know, sometimes it, it's worth it to try to resolve issues, um, especially issues as, as you've mentioned, that are so cut and dry, like this case that we have against the Air Force, right? Someone who is deaf or hard of hearing needs, um, basic accommodations and they're not getting it in the workplace. And, um, there really is no excuse for, um, an employer and especially a big employer like the Air Force to not be re provide providing those accommodations to folks. Right. Um, and so that's the sort of letter of the wall. That's what the law requires, is that people with disabilities get accommodated in the job. Um, and I don't know what the reasoning is behind not providing those accommodations, but here we are, <laugh>, uh, we're in the middle of a case and we, uh, we think that, uh, we're on the right side of the case and that, um, we will be able to successfully resolve the case and ensure that people who are working at the Air Force get the accommodations that they want and deserve.
Speaker 1 00:46:43 Jenny, thank you so much for being on.
Speaker 3 00:46:46 Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 00:46:50 Ah, and you've been listening to Disability and Progress on K F E I 90.3 fm, Minneapolis and k f e i.org. R g. My name is Sam. I've been the host and producer of this show. Erin's my podcaster. Thank you, Erin. Charlene dolls, my research team. Thank you Charlene. And we were speaking with, uh, who were we speaking with? She was the, um, wow. I said I'd memorized that and what do you know? Anyway, she was with Disability Advocates and the, um, managing attorney, and it was Jean Kim. And Jenny was speaking with us about the organization, disability Rights Advocates, and talking all about what they're up to. If you have a suggestion, you can email me at Disability and
[email protected] and suggest something you'd like to hear coming up on the show. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 00:47:53 Hey,
