Disability and Progress-October 17th, 2024-Accessible Playgrounds!

[00:00:01] Speaker A: KPI.org. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Greetings and thank you for joining disability in progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. Thanks so much for tuning in. Charlene Dahl is my pr research person. Hello, Charlene. [00:01:13] Speaker C: Good evening, everybody. [00:01:15] Speaker B: And Erin is my podcaster, my most favorite podcast maker in the world as far as this show is concerned. Thank you, Erin. And I want to remind you that if you want to be on our email list, you can email me at [email protected] and you may receive what's coming up or also what you'd like to hear on the show. So that's disability and progressemjasmin.com. this evening, though, we're speaking with Jill Moore. Jill will be talking about accessibility playgrounds. Jill is an inclusive play specialist with landscape structures. Hi, Jill. [00:02:00] Speaker A: How's it going? [00:02:01] Speaker B: Hi. Thanks so much for tuning in and joining us and being a part of this where your, where your information will stay forever. Good, good. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Super happy to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yes, we are super happy to help to have you. Can we start out a little bit? Bye. I guess let's start by what is, you know, a little bit about your role and how did you end up here? [00:02:33] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. I got here completely by accident. So my role, I work with a playground manufacturer based in Delano, Minnesota, landscape structures. And I have a disability. I've been a wheelchair user my whole life. I have spina bifida. And so when I went into college, I was really interested in product design and development. So a really big goal I had with that was I wanted to leverage my experience as a person with a disability to enter the design space and inform how people create. I always feel like there's a gap, you know, in the sense of a lot of people design things for us but not with us. And so a really big goal was to connect that lived experience. But I was actually really interested in getting into the medical field. But complete, just luck. I was at a conference speaking on the importance of play for people with disabilities, especially at a young age and how formative it is. And while I was there, my now employer happened to sit in on the session, and she invited me to Minnesota to do a tour of the factory. And they called me and they said, you're hired. And I said, who? For what? So it was just complete dumb luck, in a way, is the best things often are. [00:03:51] Speaker B: Yes. Well, Minnesota is, we are cold in the winter, but we are beautiful spring, summer and fall. And we have many lakes and great things to experience if you're an active person. So cool. Glad to hear it. So then growing up as someone with a disability, like how did that affect your experience with play, particularly at playgrounds? [00:04:20] Speaker A: Challenging, right? I mean, if we think about designing an inclusive environment, we're designing an environment for everybody to succeed. But that really hadn't been the case while I was growing up. I mean, I think especially within this realm of disability. Around that time, I mean, in the nineties, two thousands, we were really stuck within this medical model of disability. And that's to say that it was all about fixing the person and not fixing the environment. And so especially on the playground, it really wasn't talked about. I mean, they had set some bare minimum 88 guidelines but for how they designed the space. But it was never really about creating these moments and opportunities for every child of every ability to succeed. And so in particular, I mean, I remember dreading go to the playground. I hated it. My parents would ask me to go and I would come up with a million different excuses because it was never going to be somewhere that showed those wonderful things about me, that I was a competitive child, that I had a big imagination. More often than not, I looked like a little bit of a loner or super, super hesitant to really engage in things. And so play on the playground was really just, it wasn't something we sought out a lot. Instead, my parents, I mean, they were really great at throwing me into adaptive recreation and creating this just space where play was valued. And I got to do a lot of that. [00:05:48] Speaker B: So now, so what is inclusive play to you and inclusive design? And actually, why is the topic become so prevalent now? [00:05:59] Speaker A: Inclusive design, I mean, I think for me, and I think what we're seeing a lot of, it's, it's just that it's designing that we want to make sure we're creating a space that everybody can thrive. So we're thinking about all kinds of diagnoses. It's not just people like me as wheelchair users, it's friends with autism, it's ADHD, down syndrome, cerebral palsy. I mean, any facet of disability or any facet in anyone's, I mean, our abilities, everyone's abilities are constantly in flux of what we need, what our abilities might be. And so it's capturing all of that. And I think it's growing in popularity because so many people are recognizing that inclusive means everyone and their child might have unique needs or they as a family may have their own unique needs and need a place to go. And our parks should be the first and foremost some of the most inclusive spaces possible for the amount of people. I mean, it serves a community, and that's everybody in the community. So people with disabilities are never exempt. [00:07:03] Speaker B: So what kind of things are considered when we design for inclusivity? [00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So when we think about an inclusive playground, we think about, I mean, it's top to bottom. It's. What's your experience like when you get to the parking lot? I mean, we've all been there. If parking is a tragedy, we've got to get mobility devices or families even out. That's impossible. So we think from this top to bottom perspective of access, are there places. So if we have families who are bringing children, who are neurodivergent in some way, a lot of the times they benefit from having a space to. To sit and look at the playground and make a plan for how do they want to do this? What's going to be the best way to support their child and what's the best way to engage with the space? Or we think. I mean, even further thinking about. Just we think about designing for sensory cues. So we look at our blind, low vision individuals. Only about 8% of people who are blind can read braille, meaning we need to do a lot from that design side of how do we use color, how do we use sound and textures to create a more sensory aware space. So it's. It's all encompassing, really. I mean, it's looking at what are those supports needed for somebody with a disability? Like surfacing. I can't push a wheelchair through wood chips. That's miserable. But we can put down a rubber surface or a turf surface. That's a lot better for people with physical disabilities. So it's a wide range of things we can do, and a big part of it is learning just what does disability look like and how do we support it? [00:08:40] Speaker B: Plus, have you ever fallen off, you know, going down a fire pole on your tush, on wood chips? It is not cool. Just saying. Just saying. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Those don't seem comfortable for anybody. That seems like a rough go. [00:08:54] Speaker C: Hi, Jill. This is Charlene Dahl. How are these projects financed? And do you do fundraising, Charlene? [00:09:05] Speaker A: So we see these projects, they kind of. They're brought to life in a lot of different ways. We don't tend to do the fundraising directly. We can support with grant resources and education. And a lot of what I do is coming in and meeting with communities to show them what inclusion is and who are the people to bring into your team. And what kind of force do you need to bring to raise funds like that? Because inclusive playground, it does tend to be, it can be a pricier endeavor. So it's really just making sure the right people are in the team. But I've seen funding created for this in so many different ways of just people who are passionate about it, taking the project on and bringing that into their community, bringing local stakeholders, local corporations into the project. In Minnesota in particular, it's the most wholesome story. I'm going to try not to cry as I tell it, but Glen Lake elementary out of Hopkins, Minnesota, it was one fifth grade class who identified that their elementary school, it didn't have an inclusive playground and yet it had a lot of students with disabilities. And so one fifth grade class, I mean, they did bake sales and cold calls, oh gosh, here it comes. But they have raised a million dollars for their school and the district to have an inclusive playground. [00:10:25] Speaker B: That's pretty amazing. [00:10:27] Speaker A: It's incredible. I mean, just, it's finding the right people who care about your project and using that energy to really bring something special. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:10:40] Speaker C: How many accessible playgrounds has your organization done developed? [00:10:46] Speaker A: Oh goodness, that is a challenging question. So we are a global organization. I mean, we have reps from everywhere in the US, all the way to Singapore and Vietnam. It's supporting across the world. So it's hard to say exactly how many inclusive playgrounds we've been doing. But I know for a fact, I mean, most communities at this point, most municipalities of any given county or town in the United States, you can speak to them and either they've been to an inclusive playground or they have plans for one or they want to do one, figuring out how to get it in their radar and how to get it on their map. So I have no idea what the actual number is. I know we have a resource on our website where if you go to playlsi.com comma, you can find an inclusive playground near you, which I think is a really cool feature, but otherwise it's safe to say it's booming. I mean, the country and the world is super excited about the topic. [00:11:48] Speaker B: So I'm just wondering, like, I presume you're not the only organization that does inclusive playgrounds. And if that's the case, like, do you share or exchange information with other companies that work on accessible playgrounds or is everyone kind of secretly doing their own best thing? [00:12:13] Speaker A: I think it's a lot of it's a secret. Not so secret. I mean, we're a commercial manufacturer. So we are building these and some of the other commercial manufacturers and they're doing, I think it's one of those, I'm going to totally butcher whatever the saying here is, but the rising tide is good for all ships or something like that. [00:12:32] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:12:33] Speaker A: So I think we all, we face issues in a similar way and we create solutions in a similar way and it creates a lot of great inclusive solutions and really drives that competition. But, I mean, I'd be remiss to go without saying for our company, something I'm really, really proud of that I think is unique, is going back to that idea of nothing about us without us. Right. We're doing this alongside persons with disabilities. And as of this year, we started a new initiative. It's called Play Club. And we pull in kiddos across the just Minnesota area who have disabilities to come be a part of our club and inform us when we create new products or when we do photo shoots. We want to show that authentic experience and we want to raise those voices of people who are the end user. Right. I mean, they're the best feedback we're going to get. And so we're still looking for kiddos for that. We've got a great group and encourage families to join us and kind of put their voice into the mix so that we can keep driving what I consider to be a lot of innovation and inclusive play. [00:13:42] Speaker B: So can you talk a little bit about guidelines that you must follow to make playgrounds what they would call accessible? There must be guidelines, right? [00:13:56] Speaker A: There are, there are. They don't do much. So I guess two different facets. We do have a lot of guidelines. There's a lot of rules and regulations in place for design, and that's just designing a playground that's meant to be safe for all children. And so that looks at things like, if you're building a ladder, what kind of the, what can the hole be in between each step? And we want to make sure we're not creating a situation where a kid can get stuck or be in a hazard. So there's a lot of really great guidelines for how do we drive the fundamentals of design of a playground, of how much surfacing do you need in case the kid falls and some stuff like that. When we specifically look at disability in this space, we have the Americans with Disability act. And so the ADA, I mean, that was created in 1990, and then we got guidelines. So ADA guidelines for the children's play space was created in 2000. Those guidelines became law in 2010. And so if we're relying strictly on the ADA and the Americans with Disability act to dictate how do we create for these spaces, we end up relying on some really outdated information. I mean, for example, the ADA considers engineered wood fiber to be an accessible surface, which, I mean, as you talked about, from a practicality standpoint, it kind of sucks. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:15:17] Speaker A: And so also, I mean, it considers a steering wheel on a post is considered an ADA accessible element. But how fun is that going to be every time you go to the playground? So these are guidelines are in place, but they're really focused on physical access. It's. My ramps need to be a certain width, my slopes need to be a certain gate or a certain grade. It's really looking at a lot of those confines. It's a checklist approach to the bare minimum you can do. And so that's what's so captivating, I think, and exciting about these inclusive playgrounds are people realizing that the ADA, if I'm going to, if someone's saying, yeah, you've got this great ADA compliant playground, it doesn't mean very much. It's really that bare minimum by law. And so I think why they're becoming prolific is people are realizing that that's not a lot. Right. And that we can do a lot better. We can think about a lot more disabilities and we can serve a much greater group of people. [00:16:19] Speaker B: I'm just curious, Jill, I feel like it's interesting to hear you talk about different things that are on the playground or different attributes. And I was wondering if you could talk about some of the attributes that make playgrounds inclusive and how does that support disabilities? [00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. So starting, I think, a very obvious one that people, their brains tend to go to when you think about inclusive playgrounds are wheelchair accessible pieces. So something that's really, it goes viral all the time in the industry is a standard wheelchair swing. Right? [00:17:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:03] Speaker A: And a wheelchair swing. It's this. If you actually look at a standard wheelchair swing, it's a big swinging metal platform that if another child were to step in front of that, they would get, like, clocked. Right? So these things, more often than not as great as they sound, because they can fit a wheelchair user and give that kid that swinging experience probably for the first time in their lives. These have to be in a fence to the side of a playground. You have to call your park and rec department to get a code to get a key to get in one of these things. And more often than not, right, that if we're creating something inclusive, we're not putting disability on display. We don't want to put that off to the side to make my needs this circus sideshow. We want to make it inclusive. And so something within the industry that I know we do put a lot of work into is when we think about those wheelchair accessible pieces. We don't want it to be for one wheelchair user. We want it to be for me and my friends and other kids, and that it can be on the playground and not off to the side, and that I can play face to face with my peers. I can make the thing go myself. I know a really big part of me growing up with a disability, a lot of the times I was at the mercy of people doing something to me or for me. And so when we create kind of these inclusive spaces, we want to give our user as much autonomy as possible, so we make an accessible spinner called the Wegoround. And I think what's special about that is you can spin it from the interior that I can actually help and make this thing go. Same with our wego swing. That was our attempt at an inclusive swing, which I think is pretty spot on, that this is something I can roll onto. I can make it go by myself. I can play with my friends and my family. And it's not in a side space, it's in the thick of the playground. [00:18:58] Speaker B: So tell me what. Tell me what the swing looks like and. And how you make it go, how this thing looks. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Okay, so it looks like a little mini carousel in a way. It's this big circle, and it's got two seats on it. It's got a little roof on top, and there's an interior kind of like a sit and spin where you go into this thing and it's a little heavy because you're working with the weight of a full size piece of equipment, but you still have the spinner in the interior that I can contribute. I can make this thing move. Versus, if you think about standard in ground, wheelchair accessible spinners, it's this big circle with some railing around it. And I tried to get on one of those once, and a five year old found me and sent me into orbit. So that's where we think about those moments of being able to control your environment, of if I'm at the mercy of someone else and say, I want to stop spinning, that's kind of challenging to do sometimes, right? [00:19:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:59] Speaker A: So from the wheelchair access perspective, those are some of the things we think about, but we also think about our children who maybe have motor coordination, disabilities, so that's kiddos with ADHD and autism, down syndrome, cerebral palsy. And so these kids, we use our motor coordination for everything. For picking up your cell phone, you're doing a motor planning where you ideate the task and your brain talks to your body for how you want to achieve it. And that converts for kids as things like staying in their seat in school and picking up pencils or cutting construction paper. And so if we don't have that strong foundation, kids are going to struggle. And so on a playground, that's what we think about. We think about these kids who are at different levels developmentally, right? Some kids might be knocking motor coordination out of the park and some might need additional practice and different ways. So we build equipment that say a big climber, a big net climber that we're making. We are going to make sure that net climber has lots of different ways to get through it that range from really easy to super complicated. And so that way, wherever that child's at developmentally and whatever practice they need to do, they can seek out their just right Fitzhe so it's a lot about choice. It's a lot about finding the right fit. It's thinking about when kids get overwhelmed. When any of us get overwhelmed, we need some time away, right? We need quiet time or just a minute to collect our thoughts or somewhere to cool down if we're feeling really, really hot. All of those things, loud noises, really, really busy spaces, a lot of hot air, heat or cold, all of that can send our nervous system kind of into a tizzy, right? Wherever we as adults get the privilege to be like, nope, not dealing with that. Whereas kids, a lot of the time, we still need to give them that escape. So we need to give them cozy, quiet spaces or a spot to swing or spin or whatever their sensory systems need to calm back down. We want to provide that on an inclusive playground. [00:22:06] Speaker B: So talk about the importance of community input with design. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Very. Oh, my goodness, great question. So, I mean, I think if we aren't taking in community input, then we can completely miss the boat on what we need to design. For example, there was a park project that had happened. I can't recall where it was. I think it's somewhere in Wisconsin where the town put all this money in because they wanted to build an inclusive playground and they brought in designers and everybody did it and everyone thought they knocked it out of the park. And then within a month of the park opening, he said he had parents in his office every single day saying, my kid can't use this playground. There's no fence. My kid has autism. They get dysregulated. They hit that fight or flight. They're a runner. And so this playground doesn't meet our needs at all. The only place in this park that we can actually go to is the dog park that's fenced. The designer that and the team that did that initiative were just boggled. They said, you know what? We had no idea, and we completely missed that boat. And so they went in and changed it. But without your community input, without knowing who you're designing for, it's really hard to pick what you're going to prioritize. For example, it's hard to do a giant, completely, fully mecca of universal design, fully inclusive playground for every single park. That's expensive. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:37] Speaker A: And so a lot of the times, park and rec systems need to be more strategic about what they build and where. So things like, if I know that I am designing, I mean, I live in Golden Valley, right? And right next to me is courage center. So they've got a lot of wheelchair athletics, a lot of adaptive recreation, rehab. So if I were to build a new park in the city of Golden Valley, I would want their input to make a park that's a little more focused on that physical access, since that's what's nearby. So I don't think we really can intentionally create without bringing in the voices of the community. Right. Because they're going to want, the people in our community are going to drive the solutions we need. [00:24:19] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting that you mentioned the fence thing, because I always thought there are many reasons why playgrounds should be fenced, and I always feel like it. You may have a kid that has the autism that you talked about, that has a flight or fight type thing going on, but, like, how many two or three year olds just go running? All of them. Like, they all just go running around, you know, how do you. Sometimes it's like, caging them. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:50] Speaker B: So it. It's. I would think it'd be pretty beneficial. I mean, aesthetically, I'm sure it looks great not to have a fence around things, but I feel like, safety wise, that's like, one of the great things that you could do with a lot of playgrounds, regardless of how fully accessible or not that they are, is fence. But that's just me. [00:25:16] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. I mean, I don't have kids personally, but I've heard they're very expensive. Right? [00:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:21] Speaker A: And so, I mean, generally parents and caregivers, I mean, like, you said, if they know their kid isn't going to be able to bolt or wander, then they're going to feel a lot more relaxed at the space. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:32] Speaker A: So even inclusive design, I mean, that touches on a great point of designing for that multigenerational lens of thinking about we want parents and caregivers to feel comfortable, to feel safe in this space as well, because if they're at ease, then that means they're going to stay a lot longer and those kids are going to get those, I mean, just incredible benefits that we get socially and physically and cognitively and developmentally from a playground. So the longer they stay the better. [00:26:01] Speaker B: So what are some of the that you have found some of the ongoing maintenance needs of an accessible playground? [00:26:10] Speaker A: Good question. I think with maintenance, I'm not the expert in this whatsoever, but any playground is going to require maintenance, right. Because I mean, it's as simple as wood chips get kicked out of the way or you're always going to get that one kid who wants to take all of the wood chips and relocate them to a different location. And I mean, even think about if we're using a swing over and over and over, think about how the ground's always all kicked up underneath the swing, right? So with an inclusive playground, I think it's no different than maintenance is maintenance on any playground. I think inclusive playgrounds, we do get the rubber surfacing, which is going to last a fair bit longer than the wood fiber, right. So I think that's always a perk that inclusive playgrounds have is they're a little bit sturdier in that regard. But I think the biggest thing of maintenance comes down to who's actually creating or the manufacturer that's building the product. I know we did a survey, it was a couple schools that we had done playgrounds for in Texas and we did a survey with them to see how much money they spent. I think it was over the course of twelve years maintaining their playground. So new parts, anything they needed to come back in and get from us to restore, so anything that we would have charged them over twelve years. And as a collective, they only spent $300. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Really? [00:27:31] Speaker A: So that's why I think it's really important for when people go out to embark on these projects and build an inclusive playground, it's important to get to know who you're building with of what I know, for our product, we try to make everything. If you ordered a slide 20 years ago and you wanted to buy a new slide, we want to make sure that your new slide fits nearly perfectly to the t, so you're not having to buy all of these parts to adjust to it. So things adjust, things move. So we want to make sure people can get their money's worth for the longest amount of time. And so that's what I think, again, it just, it really matters for if you are doing a project, know who you're working with, know the warranties, know what it's going to take if you want to replace or refresh this park years down the road. We did one park that had been, I think it was 20 years old in Canada, and they wanted to come in and refresh it and make it inclusive. So they put new servicing down, they added a couple of new singular pieces, and otherwise they just replaced a few parts to get different colors. And this thing looks like a million bucks. Like, you would have no idea that the root of that playground is 20 years old. So for maintenance, I think it's largely dependent on who you're working with. [00:28:45] Speaker B: It's interesting because you talk about making things accessible and, you know, remaining to be functional and safe, but I feel like. I guess I feel like anything, you can almost get hurt on anything, you know, if you're not careful or if you're not using it the right way. So who does the testing to make sure it's safe or has that? [00:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah, so everything is, I mentioned before, there's these guidelines that exist from ASTM, and everything that's created fits within factory guidelines of everything that's going to be on a playground has been designed to meet these safety guidelines. I think, at least for us internally, we test things to their maximum limit. I mean, we were talking about our, we go swing the other day and it's inclusive and we had a lot of people asking about the weight limit. Right, because it's meant to fit wheelchairs. You're gonna get adults, you're gonna get power wheelchairs on there. How many wheelchairs can you fit on there? And we came back and I mean, there's not really a weight limit because we test that thing up to, I think it was 4500 pounds. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:30:02] Speaker A: So it's way more. It surpasses so much of whatever is practically going to occur in these spaces. I mean, it's crazy. You'll see it will be building a climber and you'll come into the office one day and this climber will have just thousands of pounds of barbells pulling on it to see how far it can go before it starts to take on any amount of stress or decay. So everything in the playground space that's designed is designed within these safety parameters. But a really big goal of ours is we want to mitigate the difference between risk versus hazard. Risk is something we encourage. Right. And we want kids to take risks on the playground because it is going to be a safer space. We've thought about a lot of the risks they may incur, but especially within the realm of disability, we want to allow for that dignity of risk. We need to make sure, if you think about kids learning, we all learn at the edge of our skillset, right. We might be working on a climber, and we've worked really hard on it and we feel we've gotten really good at it. We might move on to that next climber or say we really like a spinner and we got used to how it spins, but maybe we want a little more thrill. So we're going to move to the next one and it's going to feel risky. It's going to be a little bit scary. But without that risk, without finding ourselves comfortable in whatever is next, we don't get to experience success. And so especially in the realm of disability, we want to provide dignity of risk. We want access to everyone to perceive risk, but we don't want them to enter into a hazard. Risks are something you can see coming. Hazards are things you can't. So, I mean, for example, if a Ydezenhe slide had something at the top of it, if, say, something was sticking out of the slide or and a kid went down that slide wearing a backpack, that backpack could get stuck. And suddenly this is a hazardous situation. [00:32:02] Speaker B: Ah. [00:32:03] Speaker A: So we tend to, and when we talk about maintaining a playground, we want things. We don't want things to rise up too far. I mean, if you have something that maybe goes up three quarters of an inch, that suddenly becomes a trip hazard, right. And it's not a risk because that's something we're not perceiving when we're playing. If we're playing, if we're in flow, we're not looking for risks. We feel safe, our nervous system is happy, and we're ready to play. But again, those hazards are things we don't see coming. So if there's this big gap or something and I trip over that and I get hurt, that's a hazard. So when we design these spaces, the actual designs themselves are all pretty locked tight and they meet industry standards. They're meant to be safe. But again, going into that maintenance, there's classes where people specifically are trained in safety inspection of a playground. And from that maintenance perspective, that's where we want to make sure things the surfacing, like the rubber surfacing and the wood fiber is level, because that way, that's not a trip hazard. Things like that. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Are there any innovations or trends that you see emerging? As for the accessible playgrounds, lots of them. [00:33:23] Speaker A: I think a really big innovation that I've seen from that product side that we talked about was giving that user control. Because again, for a long time, if we were creating something that was wheelchair accessible, it was meant to be managed by the caretaker. They're the ones spinning it, they're the ones pushing it. And I think it's really innovative to know that I can go to a space and pursue what I want, do what I want, and guide that on my own. But something that we did that I think was just really revolutionary that I'm seeing, it's popping up everywhere now, which, again, a good thing for everybody to be making. But we kind of led the charge with this. It's a rubber belted material, and so it's a rubber belt kind of thing. It's about a quarter or a half inch thick, and it can be set at whatever width we want it to be. But we've started adding this. I mean, we put this in our first inclusive climber with the super Netplex is what it's called. And the belt itself, it's about, I don't know, 16 inches wide, and it acts as a spiral, and it goes all the way to the top of this tower into a slide. And what's really unique about it, and I encourage anybody listening to Google Super Netflix if this is something that kind of speaks to you. But what's really cool about that is that belted material can be set at whatever width we want it to be and whatever slope we need it to be. And so somebody who's crawling or getting out of their wheelchair, or a kid who maybe has a motor or mobility disability, like cerebral palsy or down syndrome or something, who needs a little bit more support, this has created a really comfortable surface to be able to crawl or scoot or however we're moving, however uniquely. But it's the first time I was ever to go up a tower and go down the really, really big slide at a playground. I've never done that before until, I think it was about four years ago. So we found that that's really innovative, as it helps a child with a disability direct their energy, in a way. Because if we think about a standard playground that has all the posts and the decks and the big slides and this big giant structure. If a kid is getting out of their wheelchair or crawling or moving a little bit differently, they have to use all of their energy to get from point a, probably, to get to the top of this thing and go to a slide instead of just making whatever ascension is most comfortable for them. So this belted material really laid this path for a lot of creativity to make new climbers and all kinds of different ways to traverse this thing, however a child would need to. And then we took it a step further and created this. It's called the flex mesh net, and I think it's the coolest thing ever. It's like a stainless steel cable. It's almost laid in the pattern of a hammock, but it's comfortable. Right. So if we have a kid who we want to take out of their chair and lay them on this net, it's not going to create uncomfortable pressure points. It's not. It's corded so it doesn't feel like metal. But it's also really can resist vandalism, which just, it's. That's an interesting thing to find, that perfect spot. But it completely revolutionized how we create. How do we create access? How do we create points for kids to rest if they do fatigue a little bit quicker. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:41] Speaker A: And it, even from your point earlier, it invites that door for parents as well, who, if you need to go catch up to your kid, if they've over committed and get stuck somewhere, this is easy for a parent to traverse as well. [00:36:54] Speaker B: Have you, do you have any partnerships between disability organizations pertaining to manufacturing things or promoting accessible things like this? [00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah, we work with a lot of different groups. I think two of the most prolific that I think in the realm of disability. So we work with Miracle League and Miracle League, we're their corporate partner, and they're an organization. It was started by a woman named Diane Alfred and her brother in Georgia. And they created, it's essentially a baseball field that's accessible. And so they found that kids with disabilities needed more opportunity to recreate, so they created this accessible baseball complex, from the dugout to the restrooms to the field. And it invites every kid. Every ability. No age is questioned. No ability is questioned. Every kid gets a hit. Every kid gets a run. And then they build from there. Some leagues go competitive. They go to an all star game every year, which is really cool. But Miracle league, they had this realization that this was everything for these families. And they would come to the park once a week, sometimes once a month, depending on how fields operated. And Miracle League wanted something that these families could go to as often as they needed. And so they decided to put in inclusive playgrounds alongside a lot of their fields. So we're partnered with them. We work with them really closely of building inclusive playgrounds, of educating when they get a new field where, I mean, these fields are everywhere from Puerto Rico to Canada to all around the world. I think they did one in Ecuador. [00:38:32] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:38:33] Speaker A: But these fields, a lot of them do partner with us and build an inclusive playground. So these families have something that it's an event, right, of bringing the family, the siblings, the cousins, the grandparents, to the park and having a day of it. Another group we work with, they're called inclusion matters by Shane's inspiration. And they do some really cool stuff of they build inclusive playgrounds. But what's so special about them is they do some programming with it where they'll partner with a local school, and they'll get all of the typically developing kids, and they'll come in and they'll do a discussion on disability. And so they'll meet with these kids and say, hey, if you are, when you think of somebody with a disability, what do you think about? And a lot of the times these kids will come back and say, oh, well, I feel sorry for them, or they can't get around like me, or they can't do all the things I can do. And then they'll partner with these kids, and they'll partner them up with some kiddos with disabilities, and they'll go to a playground. And so they have this awesome day of play where they interact and have a really great time. And then they come back and they do a debrief, and these kids say things like, oh, well, I learned that my buddy can't use their voice like me, but they have an iPad, and that's how we talked. Or we really like the same sports teams, or my buddy loved to be on the swings and needed a little, a bit of support with that. And so it becomes this just like, incredible breaking of that barrier as typical students get this, a chance to interact and understand disability on a more eye to eye level. So those are two big ones, but we work with Kaboom is another partner of ours. And so their big goal is to really just eradicate park and playground inequality. They did a project a couple years ago. It was incredible. It was in Chicago where two rival gangs actually came together and built a playground in their community because they felt that their kids had nowhere to go. So a lot of places just really putting their mark in the ground of creating more equitable play opportunity. [00:40:40] Speaker B: So how can people spread awareness about the importance of accessible playgrounds? [00:40:47] Speaker A: Oh, Mandy, I think. I mean, I think one of the best things people can do, or to use their voice to. We need a lot of people. That's a hard question. We need a lot of families in this space, I think, and I completely understand where they're coming from. We meet a lot of families who are angry that they might have a child with a disability and their community hasn't built an inclusive playground yet and they get angry about it because, I mean, and I understand that. Right. Worse than feeling that your family's needs haven't been met, that your kid hasn't been considered, that your voice isn't heard. And I completely understand why people would feel that way. And I think the best thing families in that scenario can do is be willing to give a little bit of grace to bring it to their park and rec department and say, hey, I want this. I want an inclusive playground. What do we have to do to get there and figure out a way? And obviously, I mean, don't let anybody bully you around or not listen to you at the end of the day because you're going to be your family's best advocate, but come into this space ready to collaborate, to say, hey, these are our needs. These are the people who we're connected to and we want to understand their needs as well. If we can't do this over time, we want to, or immediately, we want to come up with a way to do it over time. So bringing in, recognizing that they have a voice and they have a really, really good one and they're going to generate better energy around this than anybody else is because they're in it, they live it and they care about it and willing to collaborate and figure out where that middle ground is. How do we make this happen with the budget that we have or the space that we have? Because if I came up to you and said, build me an inclusive park, I mean, your first question would be like, oh, gosh, we have room for that. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:39] Speaker A: So willing to meet in that collaboration and then to get the word out. I think understanding that my playground experience, if I'm not considered, is going to be really difficult and that I deserve to play just like everybody else. I deserve that equitable space to be. And I think it's. It's one of those things that it's hard to deny that, right? I mean, a lot of people can't get angry for saying we want to build playground that includes kids with disabilities. But I think a really important thing to remember that is if I come in and I want an inclusive playground that's not for kids with disabilities. An inclusive playground is for everyone and kids with disabilities as well. And so this park isn't going to be just for me, it's not going to be just for our wheelchair users. It's for our entire community that we want everybody to have a space to go and to thrive and to bring that vitality. [00:43:36] Speaker B: You know, it's like elevators. They're for everyone. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Yes. Brilliant. I'm going to steal that. [00:43:43] Speaker B: Ah, go for it. I really appreciate your time that you spent with us, Jill. And I wanted to ask if there's any final comments. And also open it for Charlene. Did you have any more questions? [00:43:56] Speaker C: No, I wish they had this stuff when I was a little kid. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Right, like that have been a game changer. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Any final comments then, Jill? [00:44:09] Speaker A: No, just seriously, thank you for having me. And sorry I was bad at the zoom at first. [00:44:14] Speaker B: It's okay. [00:44:16] Speaker A: It's a subject I'm really passionate about. And I'm excited that other people are excited about it. I mean, I think it's something that it's gonna grow and it's gonna grow rapidly. And I think having the chance to speak about it, I mean, it makes sure that we do it right and that we learn how to include people and who to include and what to consider and what we need to know. And at the end of the day, I mean, that makes for the best product possible. And I think that it's cool to know that and cool to have this little piece of that story in a way. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And maybe I'll meet you on the playground for sure. [00:44:58] Speaker A: See you on the playground. Thanks for having me. [00:45:09] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for tuning in and we really always appreciate that. If you want to be on the show or have a topic that you'd like to see featured, you can email us at disability and progressamjasmin.com. and we would love to feature that next week. I think next week is cerebral palsy. And there, because they have united cerebral palsy celebrating 75 years. And as always, thank you, Charlene, for being with me and being involved. This has been disability and progress. The views expressed of this show are not necessarily those of KFAI or its board directors. And sorry, Joseph, got to be quiet now. And this is KFEI, 90.3 FM, Minneapolis and kfei.org dot. We were speaking with Jill Moore. Jill was talking about accessible playgrounds, and Jill was or is an inclusive play specialist with landscape structure. If you'd like to hear your topic, you can email me at disability and [email protected]. thank you, Charlene Dahl, for being my pr person, and we'll see you on the flip side next week. Thanks for listening.