Speaker 0 00:00:59 And good evening. Thank you for joining disability and progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. My apologies for the late start. Oh, someday I'll get the hang of this new stuff. And tonight we have some great people in while at least one great person. And of course my research person is great. Um, Christine Stark that evening. Christine, are you there? Oh, yay. Yay. Charlene doll is my research team. Good evening, Charlene. I am presuming sure. Oh, there you go. Christine is an author and she has, um, had many books and her latest one that we will be talking about is called carnival lights. Thank you for joining me, Christina. Really appreciate that. It's been a long time.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Yeah, it has been. I was just thinking that it's great to be here. Thanks for having me on
Speaker 0 00:01:53 Let's start out. Give me a little bit of history about you and, um, and how you got into writing.
Speaker 2 00:02:03 Well, um, yeah, I grew up here in Minnesota and, uh, I had, uh, uh, unfortunately a situation I was born into, um, uh, a family that had some members that were involved in sex trafficking and other forms of sexual violence. And so I, I grew up in, uh, a lot of violence and I got out of that as an older teenager, actually, by going to college in another town. And so I've been, uh, working as a teacher, a writer, an advocate around issues of violence, um, particularly in the native community. I'm a <inaudible> Cherokee and a white heritage.
Speaker 0 00:02:47 All right. Thank you. Um, I want to talk about, um, your writing, your first book, just I'm going to touch on it. And we did interview on it, um, tales, uh, uh, or I'm sorry, um, nickels and a tale of dissociated dissociation. Um, can you tell me what that was? I believe that was your first, as far as I knew real intense book that at least to me it was, it was about pretty intense topics. And what was that like to, to start writing on those very powerful topics like that?
Speaker 2 00:03:24 Yeah, uh, that was my first novel and it was written mostly without punctuation. It's kind of like a novel of prose poems and, and it there's, you know, aspects of it, obviously that are really intense, um, because it, it follows the, um, character from age five until she's 25. Right. And I really wrote it because I wanted people to have an idea of what it's like to survive, uh, that kind of extreme violence and the impact that it can have on, um, you know, your experience basically of the world really. Uh, and, and, and although it was very, it's a very intense subject. It's not just violence and just abuse because there's many more aspects to any human being than just those things. And, um, I actually had a really, you know, it, parts of it were difficult to write, but because of the freedom of the style, uh, as a writer, I really enjoyed writing it. I was, it was very freeing and, um, it was nice to not be constrained by, uh, you know, uh, punctuation and so on. It was enjoyable actually,
Speaker 0 00:04:42 I presume it was as fairly therapeutic in many ways.
Speaker 2 00:04:48 Yeah. Yeah. The, the character in the, in the story is not me. I mean, we have some similarities, but you know, she's a sectional character. Right.
Speaker 0 00:04:56 But a survivor nonetheless,
Speaker 2 00:04:58 And, and yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think anytime, at least speaking for myself, uh, you know, anytime that I can put something out there that I feel like is bringing some sort of justice, some sort of deeper understanding, uh, some sort of healing for people. That's always a really, it's always a really good feeling for me.
Speaker 0 00:05:20 You tend to write about these very intense, powerful subjects. And I, I understand why, I mean, you kind of lived a lot of them. Um, I w w I would think it feels like it could be very exposing in a way, even though the characters are not you, can you talk a little about that?
Speaker 2 00:05:44 Yeah. I think, I think Nichols felt maybe a little bit more that way for me, plus it was my first novel. And, you know, I was writing about, about subjects that, well, you know, when you, when you write about or talk about a dissociation and, um, the ways that people process and live with, uh, being traumatized, right. Um, you know, there's a lot of people who they don't want anything to do with it, with you. Uh, they shun you, uh, they look at you like, you're crazy. Um, you know, people just don't want to deal with the topic. And, and that was a bigger issue for me then it was also 2012 that it came out. And, um, I think, you know, that that was much more of a feeling of exposure than carnival lights is.
Speaker 0 00:06:33 Did you feel like people were like that to you?
Speaker 2 00:06:38 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody. Right. You know, you can have, you can have one person react to you like that. And 300 react to you by saying thank you. That was amazing. And you know, that one person kind of sticks with you more. Right. So, you know, I don't mean like, it was just like, every time I turned around, it was this terrible experience, but, you know, it's hard to process. It's hard to deal with, um, putting yourself out there like that, whether it's your own personal story or whether it's a fictionalized character, it, it, it, you know, like you're saying, it's hard to put yourself out there like that. I did have someone come up to me about nickels and say, oh, um, well, uh, you don't seem crazy. And I was like, all things,
Speaker 0 00:07:22 Oh my,
Speaker 2 00:07:24 Okay. Yeah. You know, whatever. I just, you know, I just ignore them. What are you going to do a whole,
Speaker 0 00:07:28 What do you do? Where do you put the things, you know, like you talked about, there's, you, I'm sure you've had many, many people say, thank you. This is, I I've lived this. Or I've, you know, been there or I survived it. And then you're right. It is true. The one or two people that say something for some reason, some ridiculous reason we relive and relive that. What do you do with that? Where do you put it?
Speaker 2 00:07:55 Yeah, I think that, you know, I just, uh, get, get so much healing out of, um, being a part of the <inaudible> community, going to ceremonies. Um, and I get more and more healing, you know, every year I get more and more healing by following those ways and, and having teachings and learning and walking, you know, walking that path of healing. Um, and, and the more I do that, the more that other stuff just kind of tends to slough off of me. And I really stay focused on doing my best, um, to be a good person in this world. And, and, you know, knowing I'm gonna make mistakes. And I really focused on wanting to speak the truth. Uh, that's a cultural value. Um, it's obviously a personal value of mine and having grown up in the way that I did, um, being able to, uh, speak about the things that I know that happened to a lab that are done to a lot of people in this country.
Speaker 2 00:08:55 Um, it brings me a lot of satisfaction and I, I feel like as long as I kind of stay in that, you know, I, I can, I can let the rest of it go. And, you know, you know, I've had, I've had elders, seventies, eighties come up to me after maybe a talk or reading or something, you know, and disclose about their childhood sexual violence for the first time. And you can see that healing starting to happen for them. And if I can be a facilitator or a conduit of that in any way, shape or form for other people, uh, it, you know, it's worth it. It just, it's just worth it to, to, to bring, to bring forward these issues that are, are really deeply buried. Um, you know, in our culture. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:09:46 What do you teach?
Speaker 2 00:09:49 I actually teach writing.
Speaker 0 00:09:51 Ah, well, that would be an interesting thing being in your class. Um, talk a little bit about what, what you, what you, how you teach that, what are you, do you teach intense writing or are you beginning writing or what do you do?
Speaker 2 00:10:08 No, actually I teach, I teach at universities and colleges and I, I really just add a stick. I stick to, you know, the composition and sometimes literature. So I don't really, you know, bring a lot of this stuff into the classroom. Right.
Speaker 0 00:10:25 Upper level course.
Speaker 2 00:10:27 Yeah, yeah. Specialized course, right? Yeah. Traumatize my poor 19 year old students,
Speaker 0 00:10:34 Although I'm, I'm amazed at what people both do nowadays and are exposed to. Um, personally, I think there's a lot of desensitization, right. I think a lot of people get so used to seeing really traumatic stuff that I feel like sometimes it just rolls off them or it doesn't bother them anymore. My whole goal is I want it to bother you. It should bother you, you know, um, set the stage for me about your book.
Speaker 2 00:11:07 The former story about the two Ojibwe teenage girl cousins, Sharon, Chris is set in 1969 in Minnesota and it follows them as they, it follows them just over the course of a few weeks in the summer of 1969, as they leave a fictitious Northern Minnesota reservation to come to Minneapolis. And then there's a lot of backstory. That's intertwined about their family, about the reservation system, uh, here in Minnesota. And then it also branches off, uh, into, um, other aspects, um, historical aspects of Minnesota it's partially historical fiction. So, um, I guess it is historical fiction and there are, um, there are some historical facts and figures that are in the book that just kind of fit in perfectly with, uh, the story. So a lot of it is about identity, um, not just native identity, but also what we now call white identity, which of course, you know, 75, 100 years ago was quite different than how, um, quote unquote white people are, are perceived in this country. There was, you know, ethnic differences. There was, you know, great religious divides and also people were still speaking the languages of the European countries that they came from or had very intense, um, cultural, uh, ties with their European, uh, you know, mother country or, you know, whatever they might call it. So it's about a lot of different issues. And, um, the whole book is set in Minnesota.
Speaker 0 00:12:48 You know, I notice you have a lot of history, um, about not, I mean, Minnesota. Yes. But the lakes and, and, um, the reservation and how things changed. That's true. History. I presume.
Speaker 2 00:13:04 Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a, um, significant amount of true history. And, and, and I, I, um, kind of take the intuitive research. I I'm actually an academic, I write academic articles and I've done academic research and this kind of research I would say was intuitive research. It would, I would be like, I know this one piece of information about this part of the story. I know that family's finished, but I don't know anything else about them yet. And then I would do a little, you know, a little bit of research and it would just like pop out at me, um, and, and, uh, just fit in really nicely with the fictional story. So it was really an interesting, um, process for me to write this book, uh, to, to blend those ways, um, was really, was really a lot of fun. And also it was satisfying in the sense that I think that, uh, um, white supremacy in Minnesota, uh, you know, and, and these, um, uh, roots, uh, need to be examined and they really need to be brought forward so that, so that we can all, you know, heal from that and, and bring about justice and healing in this, in this state, in this country.
Speaker 0 00:14:16 Yes. I was going to say, I'm sure it's not just the state as we will talk about later. Um, how long did it take for you to write this book?
Speaker 2 00:14:26 I actually started this book 20 years ago when I was a graduate student at the university of central Florida. And our professor had us write a little like seven or 10 page imitation of Cormac. McCarthy's all the pretty horses. And these two characters, they just like jumped out and just jumped down the page and there they were, and they came with their names and everything. Um, and so my professor took me aside after he read it. And he said, you have a responsibility to these characters to finish this, turn it into a book.
Speaker 0 00:14:59 And I remember thinking at the time I
Speaker 2 00:15:03 Can't write, I can't write a book, but I always carried that sense of responsibility. And, um, you know, I think this book, um, this, this book has its own reasons and the story has its own own reason and purpose. And, um, I think this is just when it needed to come out
Speaker 0 00:15:22 About, you know, what gave you an interest in this particular story for writing a story like this? What made you feel like you had to do it?
Speaker 2 00:15:35 Well? Um, I think, I think partly, uh, my, my, my feeling is that, um, you know, that, that the story came. I think the story came to me and I felt responsible and I felt tasked in a sense to write it. Uh, and you know, this is a story of, of, um, my family. Uh, this is a story of my community. This is a story of my ancestors. And I don't mean that, you know, in a, in an absolute literal, you know, this, this is obviously a fictional piece, but it's written out of that spirit. And, you know, I think a lot of times, um, readers might not understand how much truth is in fiction. And they'll be like, well, I don't want to read that. It's, it's not real it's fiction. I want to read non-fiction, but when we're writing nonfiction, we're doing a lot more censoring. Um, and, and, you know, making maybe ourselves look a little better or whatever, or not saying something, but with fiction, you've got a, you've got a green light. And, um, so this, this story is, you know, the story is it's about my past too. It's about my community's past
Speaker 0 00:16:52 You talk in the book, um, about fear of the police and in carnival lights. And this is, this is bothersome to me. Um, and it's not just in regards to the native culture. You know, I think a lot of other cultures, the African-American culture, many other cultures experienced fear of the police. And this is sad to me because there's supposed to be the protectors, right. They are supposed to be the ones that look over you watch out for you and protect you, but constantly these two main characters, um, shear and Chris, Kristen are terrified of them in some ways, in many ways. Can you talk a little about that?
Speaker 2 00:17:47 Yeah. I, you know, um, obviously I don't speak for, you know,
Speaker 0 00:17:53 Is that a true feeling though, in the native community?
Speaker 2 00:17:57 Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's absolutely my feeling too. Um, you know, uh, I think there's, uh, a lot of, um, fear of the police. There's a lot of, um, and it's not just, uh, that it's something that's in our head, you know, and we need to get over it's because the police have been complicit or actual perpetrators. Um, not every police officer, obviously. I'm not saying that, but, um, as an institution, unfortunately, you know, it has, it has had a often a very negative impact on the native community, especially when you're talking about homeless, native people, especially when you're talking about sexually abused, sex trafficked, um, people in general. And, and then, you know, also particularly, uh, native folks as well. And again, I'm not saying that every police officer is bad or any, you know, that's not what I'm saying, but, um, institutionally that unfortunately has been the way that it, it has largely played out in our communities.
Speaker 0 00:19:01 Well, you can find, unfortunately you can find people's real videos all the time about how the police are failing in public. And I am hopeful, but this will change, but it, it does feel surprisingly terrifying. Um, and if people don't realize, or if they think they're totally safe and it can never happen to you just because you're white. I really don't think that that's true and think that it will probably happen less, but you still need to be aware of what's going on that it's, you know?
Speaker 2 00:19:40 Yeah. I mean, I've, I've never, I've never considered the police to be something that would protect me or that wouldn't do anything positive for me, you know, personally, I've never experienced that feeling and I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I mean, I'm just, you know, that's just where I'm coming from.
Speaker 0 00:19:59 I want to talk about Christian. She goes through many changes. Um, barriers changes when she's in the church bathroom, what happens there? Is she just really like looking back on things or is she having difficulties mentally?
Speaker 2 00:20:20 Yeah. So, um, Chris or Kristen, she, she goes by both names in the book. Um, she, uh, had her father, um, abused her and abused and did some things to her mother as well when she was very young. And she, the, the book and Glen exemplifies how she carries that forward, how she survives that and her cousin, Chris, like we'll comment on occasion, you know, like she sees Chris going in. Did I say her cousin, Chris, her cousin, share her cousin share comments on occasion about how see she will see sort of this chain come over Chris. And she calls her little Chris. And so, um, I don't want to give away the, you know, some of the stories. So I'll just say that, you know, she was a very young when her father was, um, you know, harming her and her mother and then that continued on until she, she left and when people carry that and it, it, um, it comes out in a variety of ways.
Speaker 2 00:21:28 And with her it's, uh, sometimes it's like a regression where she was, she turns into a much younger, um, you know, part or aspect of herself. And sometimes she's kind of cycling through like, um, Jacob, you know, also in the book, uh, um, a gay teen teenage Jewish boy that they meet up with in Minneapolis, they will kind of cycle through some of their trauma. And with his, you know, he's also got a lot of drug abuse that's going on with that, but, um, it's a cycling through of, of the, um, the harm and the different, you know, sometimes people can develop these, uh, what they call dissociation, uh, you know, these states where, where, you know, you're, uh, a different age or you might even be a different, you know, somebody, some part of you that adapted a different name in order to survive, whatever trauma you went through
Speaker 0 00:22:19 And the F in the sense it didn't happen to them. It happened to somebody else,
Speaker 2 00:22:25 Right? Yep, exactly. Exactly. It's a, it's a skillful coping mechanism and, uh, you know, um, the dominant culture in the us, you know, what looks at it as a pathology and it's actually called a disorder. Um, and I was talking to my west end or a whole Glen once about it. And I went in and the Ojibwe way, he's kind of like a bad a godparent. Uh, he was, uh, um, he's, he's passed now, but he was a Indian doctor, a spiritual person. Um, and, you know, he said, oh, what are they saying now? And so I explained to him what that meant. And he said, he said, oh, that's not a gift from the spirits. Um, and, um, he said, I had to walk all over Canada and the U S to learn those ways. And so, you know, I think it, it, it's just, uh, that's one of obviously the major scenes in the book, right. Are these cultural differences between in this particular book, the Ojibwe, um, traditions, and then, you know, the dominant white culture that, that we all exist in.
Speaker 0 00:23:37 Yes. And, and also how they pass on, you know, their culture and their history, where, and what they choose pass on. Right. Not, not always everything. They, they pass on what they feel seems like strength, what they can make their G their children's stronger.
Speaker 2 00:23:57 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's, uh, you know, like you're saying, that's, that's something that happens over and over again in the book. And, you know, sometimes people will be like, Bo you know, this book was really about, uh, you know, there's, uh, abuse happening in it. There's homelessness and this, but to me, the book is like, really like the backbone of this book is, is just the, the love, um, and the cultural traditions and strengths of the Ojibwe to be able to survive, um, what our ancestors survived and what, frankly, we're still surviving in many ways, uh, right now, um, those, those ways I, you know, uh, I think are very evident in the book. And I remember getting those, those kinds of teachings from my grandmothers. Um, you couldn't talk about it specifically, or, you know, outwardly, but you, you, you made those teachings evident by how you lived and the ways that you treated people.
Speaker 2 00:24:56 Um, and I, I learned a lot of that from my grandmothers and, um, uh, I'm very, very thankful for that. They were, um, models for me that were very different from some of the other people in my life, uh, who were, you know, very violent and destructive. And I could, um, survive that because I had my grandmothers in my, in my life to show me another way to model that for me. And so there's a lot of that happening in the book. And, you know, a lot of people aren't aware that, uh, indigenous, uh, religious ways or spiritual ways our ceremonies were outlawed in the United States of America until 1978, it was illegal to practice our traditions and our cultures in this country in 1978, the land of
Speaker 0 00:25:52 Religious freedom, huh? Yep.
Speaker 2 00:25:54 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:25:55 Unreal. We need to take another, another short station break and we'll be right back
Speaker 3 00:26:03 Programming on KFC supported by Metro transit. Metro transit now offers use of an app that connects blind and low-vision customers to a live agent for navigation assistance during transit trips, more
[email protected] slash a I R a.
Speaker 0 00:26:24 And this is Cathy I 90.3, FM Minneapolis, and kfi.org. We're talking with Kristen stark. And, um, my name is Sam. We're talking about a new book that's called carnival lights and Kristy sent me something that was rather horrifying. You tend to do that. Um, and it was, uh, and it was in your book as well on how dozens and dozens of children are taken from their homes and families by social workers. I presume it was more prevalent then, although I'm not sure, but it's still happening. Can please inform us.
Speaker 2 00:27:08 Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. So you could talk to a lot of folks, um, a lot of native people that grew up on the reservations or an urban areas, and, um, the social workers would come out onto the reservation and the kids knew to run and hide because the social workers were, um, potentially coming out there to take them away and they may not ever return. And so that's something that, you know, does happen, uh, in carnival lights where the social workers come out and the, um, grandparents of Chris and Cher, you know, are very conscious of that and conscious of, um, hiding, having the girls hide. And then also of trying to placate the social workers, uh, to protect, um, their families. And I actually have a friend Sam Emory, who I, um, you know, um, in part dedicated the book to, and she had that experience.
Speaker 2 00:28:07 Her and her sister were four and five years old. And a social worker came out under the white earth reservation. This would have been back in, I think the forties or fifties. And, um, uh, the girls were with their family and the social worker took them and she adopted them out to a Greek family in Minneapolis. And the girls were raised as Greek and Sam did not know that she was an <inaudible> until she was 27 years old. And certainly many, many people in the native communities have been lost for good through that, um, process. So, so that is, uh, you know, it, it, it happens, it happens in this fictional story in carnival lights, but that is a very, um, prevalent experience. And I appreciate you saying that you presume that that's not the case anymore. However, I, I often talk about how, um, uh, you know, institutions or systems, uh, they might change, but they, they just sort of, um, uh, modify themselves.
Speaker 2 00:29:12 And so actually what we have right now, uh, we have federal legislation that was created and thanks to native people in the 1970s, really pushing against native children, being removed from their families and communities. And it's called, um, Iqua Indian child welfare act is federal legislation. Despite this federal legislation, more native children are removed from their families and their communities, then the boarding school era. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's quite a horrifying story. I would really like do encourage folks to look into this more and be good allies to the native community. And however, they might be able to, um, do that. But for instance, the state of South Dakota makes half of its revenue off of the removal of Indian children from their families. I
Speaker 0 00:30:07 Think I heard 56 or 57%.
Speaker 2 00:30:11 Yeah. So,
Speaker 0 00:30:13 You know, some people might think, and this, this is, was any culture that there's some amount of abuse in homes and they might think, well, certainly they are taking the kids that are getting abused away. That would be good. Right. But that's not the fact at all. That's, um, I presume some of them are in abusive situations, but they're just taking dozens and dozens of them.
Speaker 2 00:30:41 Yeah. And, you know, there's just like a double standard that exists in CPS. I actually have an MSW and a master's in social work, you know, so I've, I've, um, you know, uh, been in this, uh, this, that field, um, in a, in a variety of ways. Um, but there's, you know, there's just a double standard that exists between especially white wealthy families or middle-class families versus, um, you know, families that are struggling financially and then versus, uh, you know, race issues. So you look at African-American and native children, and they're taking a much higher rates than white children. And the issue with the native communities is the, even if the children are, are in a situation that maybe they meet need to be removed for a while, while the parents can get back on their feet or deal with, you know, whatever, um, neglect the children might be experiencing, they're supposed to stay in the community. They're supposed to stay in the native community. So that they're, they don't end up like Sam, you know, not even knowing that they're Indian, um, not being raised with cultures, not being raised in, in, in the community, but, but they're not. So, you know, you have this again, you have the spreader legislation, it's federal law and it's not followed, you know, there were 500 treaties signed, um, in this country between, uh, indigenous nations and the us government. And do you know how many of them were broken 500,
Speaker 0 00:32:11 Every one of them,
Speaker 2 00:32:13 Every one of them by the us government, you know, so, so it's, um, it, you know, it, it, it speaks to right, like the, the vast, um, or the, the chasm between cultures and how we view institutions in this country. You know, if you come from a native, um, community or you come from African-American community, you know, or, um, you know, other communities, you're going to look on, uh, these institutions very, very differently because of your own experiences and your community's experiences with these institutions and their double standards.
Speaker 0 00:32:53 I want to talk as well about something that was stated in the video I saw in regards to that the children taken that, that there are communities out there that get money, um, for children that are, have learning disabilities and that the children, these particular children, indigenous children are taken and tested. They don't pass the tests. And so they get money for them. Can you talk? I did I misunderstand?
Speaker 2 00:33:29 Yeah. I think, I think that, um, some of it is that they're tested, but I've also known it to happen. Whereas if they're native, they're just automatically check marked as like learning disabled or some other kind of disability. Um, and then they get more money. The state gets more money, um, for each of those children. Um, if they're marked as, as, uh, learning disabled or another kind of disability, they make even more money off of those turtles. So really what that is is that sex trafficking, sex trafficking, trafficking of children, like that's selling Indian children and the state making money off of them and removing them from the community and the, the, again, the, the continuation of, um, you know, the, the disconnection from one generation to the next and how harmful that has been and continues to be, uh, for native people
Speaker 0 00:34:26 And anybody who might be out there. I know schools handle things differently. Sometimes I've seen elementary schools take kids out of class. This would be a problem if you're labeled learning disabled, because then you're not getting the same education necessarily as your peers. And you may not be learning disabled. Um, the lucky ones may be the ones that have the in-class teachers that come in and then presumably they could show differently, but I don't know how one stops, something like this.
Speaker 2 00:35:02 Yeah. Well, um, you know, I, I, I, I think, I think that's something that we're, many of us are often asking ourselves, like, what can be done about this? How do we, how do we combat something that is, um, so systemic and entrenched and powerful, right. Just very powerful. We're talking about, you know, uh, the government basically. Um, and then also when you get into, you know, um, CPS and you get into foster care, um, that is where there's a lot of sex trafficking that makes those kids really vulnerable to sex traffickers too. And so we'd see all of these issues and how they intertwine in the lives of individuals and in the lives of communities. And I think that, um, you know, in, in whatever ways that we can bring forward this information, like what you're doing, it's just, it's just really crucial. And for, for people to, um, read more and to learn more and to see how they can act as good allies to the native community, um, and work alongside, or, you know, find out how they can, they can help the native, um, community, um, combat this, uh, you know, with native people leading the way, of course,
Speaker 0 00:36:22 Do you, by chance have the, the, no, the link of that video that you gave to me, if you don't, I do have it. And so I will do my best to put it on the webpage. Um, so people can go watch and listen to that. Um,
Speaker 2 00:36:38 Yeah, yeah. I, I don't have it on me. I would have to look it up as well, but I would really encourage people to take a look at that. The ACL is, you know, um, has, has stepped up to help the families in South Dakota, the native families in South Dakota with the situation. And, and, you know, that's the kind of thing that we, we need more of is those kinds of collaborations. Uh, because a lot of times, you know, native communities, and a lot of times native individuals, we don't have the kind of resources that maybe some other communities do. This
Speaker 0 00:37:14 Particular, um, video was, was talking about both South Dakota and Texas, but South Dakota certainly was the first one. I presume there might be other states that, um, are involved in this too. But I, I was just a quite amazed, it felt startling that the, even the governor of the state was afraid to do anything about it. Like there was so much money in so much of this that people just didn't want to touch it. And I thought where's the human decency.
Speaker 2 00:37:54 Yeah. Yeah. How do you, and that's one of the things kind of a lights is really about, you know, like it's really about that. Um, you know, uh, the, uh, we have, uh, a spirit called the Windigo and it's a cannibal spirit. And, and so, um, you know, I think, I think that kind of, uh, idea of, uh, there being an energy or a spirit, you know, that is, that is accountable like that. Um, I think we, we can see a lot of examples of that in the dominant culture as well, really cannibalizing, you know, destroying the earth, the water, the land, the trees, the animals and human beings. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:38:38 You have, I think, a particular way, and I'm sure maybe writing does it for you that, of getting this out and you don't feel angry to me, although I, in order to speak about I'm sure. Speaking and speaking about it helps, but how do you, how do you retain, you know, how do you maintain from not being so angry?
Speaker 2 00:39:03 Um, well, certainly I'm, you know, I've, I've gone through plenty of anger, you know, uh, especially, you know, I'm younger and I, for me, um, that anger was protective and that anger, um, that anger kept me from being annihilated because of the violence that I was going through, that I experienced, that people committed against me even as a very young child. Um, and so I'm grateful for, um, that anger because it kept me alive. Um, but you know, like I said, um, once I, I came back to Minnesota and I got involved, you know, again in the Ojibwe community and in the traditions and the ceremonies, uh, you know, it's just, it's just continually healing. And, um, I'll always be healing all of my, all of my life, but I guess the feeling like I said earlier, the feeling of speaking about this and the gratitude that I had, um, for being able to be heard, like I'm grateful to be on the show, um, to bring forward these issues on and, and make the truth known in the ways that I can participate in that process, because there's, there's a lot of people who, um, who have a lot of different information that, that the rest of us need to hear.
Speaker 2 00:40:27 There's, there's things I need to hear from other people, you know, and, and by, by speaking about that and speaking the truth, it gives me a sense of, um, it gives me a sense of peace.
Speaker 0 00:40:39 Well, you're very welcome. And, um, I hope this does something. I want the two girls in the book and I call them girls cause they really are. They're quite young. Um, sure. And Chris, it's a huge difference with their personalities. Not only that, but how, what I call street smart, they are. And Chris, who I would have expected would be more street smart is like not, and sheer spiels, very street smart, or at least, and I presume some of those instincts envelop or develop from that from the, but she had a barely stable family. Um, you know, we all have our deals with our families, but hers felt more stable. So what do you think creates that term? The street smart, and I'm not sure that's the correct term, but it's survival instinct, street, smart, whatever you want to call it. What creates that in people in some ways?
Speaker 2 00:41:43 Yeah, the, the way that I see that with Sharon, Kristen, that I am hoping that people, you know, when they read the book that they'll have a deeper understanding of that. And an awareness of back, both of those girls, you know, grew up on a reservation in a rural area if it's fictitious reservation, but it was, I put it just, um, west of Duluth. And so they didn't have city stuff. I mean, all this stuff that, you know, you would have seen coming into the city would have been brand new share had been here once before, but it would have been brand new to Chris and it's mesmerizing right. In a lot of ways. But Chris went, you know, Sharon was not abused growing up and Chris's father abused her horribly. And that, you know, um, that can, that, that impacts people in different. Some people might be really, you know, they might be really street smart or whatever, but, um, Chris, you know, that, that harmed her in a way that made her very vulnerable.
Speaker 2 00:42:47 It made her vulnerable to the bright lights and Bibles of the carnival, you know, the, um, dominant culture carnival that, you know, when United States is right. It made her vulnerable to that. Um, because she had, you know, holes in her, um, holes in her, you know, her being and her emotions and, and, um, there are perpetrators out there, you know, like I referenced in the book who it's very easy to see that in people really, it's easy to spot that you can just observe people often and see that very clearly in the way they move their body, the way they react to things. And so she's very vulnerable because of that and share really does her best to protect her. Right. But I think that, you know, people like to really blame sexual abuse victims, um, um, because then they don't have to look at the fact that like we have an organized, um, system in this country, uh, that, um, targets people, uh, for rape.
Speaker 2 00:43:52 And there are people who make money off of it. And, um, we would rather talk about how that 14 year old girl did something, quote, unquote wrong and brought this about on her then to take a real hard look at, um, at this institution of, of sexual violence in this country. And, um, I hope that people will read this book and, and, and start to have more awareness and an empathy and understanding, especially for a young people who have been abused. I mean, also with Jacob as well, you know, you can just really see how, how, um, damaged he is by the sexual violence, but also as, uh, a descendant of survivors of the Shoah or the Jewish Holocaust, because, you know, we can't separate really, especially in this book, you can separate the sexual violence and the, you know, what these young people are experiencing either as Jewish or native kids, um, from their ancestors past, um, and the, the, um, genocide, the attempted genocide against Jewish people in native people. They're not inseparable.
Speaker 0 00:45:10 Um, Chris, first of all, I want to ask my, uh, research part of my research team, Charlene. Charlene, do you have any questions in regards to, um, Chris's topic tonight?
Speaker 4 00:45:23 No. Uh, it is a powerful book and, uh, I really think people should read it and understand more about our, our natives, the people that were here first and how we're treating them so poorly.
Speaker 0 00:45:39 Um, Chris, can you tell us how you can get the book?
Speaker 2 00:45:43 Yeah. You can get the book anywhere books are sold. Um, certainly Amazon and other online places. And then our local bookstores are great sources and, you know, it's good to keep them in business.
Speaker 0 00:45:56 Yes, definitely. I have been sad in more ways than one when books were that I loved, um, clothes because online things were, were higher and there's, I love local bookstores right there. You know, there's something to be said, even the big chain bookstores that are, that are here with a visible building there's they hold a lot. And just when's the last time somebody brought their kid into a bookstore it's, uh, it's amazing things. And, um, I really miss boarder books. I, I loved that store, um, was amazing store for both kids and adults. Um, can you tell me, uh, talk about we're going back to this? You know, I, I think I assumed that all things were somewhat created equal. I always knew there was discrimination. I mean, all you have to do is have a disability and, you know, there's discrimination. There always is. It's not a fair playing field. It never has been I'm, I'm probably a little bit of a cynic, but I hope someday I can say there will be, but I'm not seeing it yet. Um, it surprised me when I saw you talk about the Hiawatha insane asylums that existed in South Dakota. Do they still have it?
Speaker 2 00:47:24 No, it ended at, it was on 1934, I believe when it ended, but it was in Canton, South Dakota and it was the Hiawatha insane asylum for Indians. Um, and it was the second quote, unquote insane asylum to be federally funded by the U S government. And, um, native people were brought there from all over the country, uh, for infractions like, um, you know, speaking against the BIA agent or disagreeing, you know, with, uh, with a white person, especially a white person in a position of authority. Um, so it was, it was really more of a, um, a substitute for jail than anything else. And, um, they also made money off of the people in the asylum, in the, in a similar way that, uh, they made money off of a lot of the boarding school students by sending them to farmers during the summer and having them work, um, in the fields or in the house ironing as domestic, uh, labor.
Speaker 2 00:48:28 So the, um, idea, you know, uh, the pathologizing of any kind of difference by our dominant culture, uh, like you're, you're talking about around disability, um, around sexual orientation, um, being lesbian or gay was considered a, you know, it was in the DSM until the 1970s, you know, it's just really a pathology of anything that is different from what is believed to be right, or the norm or whatever we want to say. And I think that, um, you know, uh, Tony Troy, or, um, uh, Ojibwe professor at Bemidji, you know, he talks a lot about, um, the value of Ojibwe culture and traditions and language and, and ways of seeing the world. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, um, we all bring our gifts as individuals and I'll cultures bring their gifts to. And so I think that it's not just a matter of, of, um, you know, uh, like pity or something, but it's like, what can we learn from indigenous people? What can we learn from these other cultures, uh, that have been discriminated against? What can we learn against individuals who, you know, what can we learn from individuals who have disabilities?
Speaker 0 00:49:55 I would like to try to push the media as well. I think, um, you know, I think a lot of people think, well, how come I never heard about this? You know, this is stuff you don't hear about that, but I'd like to take this moment to say, you know, the high, high, you know, visibility of media that is really popular circulates, about seven or eight stories, you know? Um, and they just keep going round and round. And occasionally you hear and nev another one creep in, but generally it's seven or eight stories for that week or whatever it is, you know, the most high, the story that gets really popularity. We'll, we'll, we'll win the, this is what we talk about. So I encourage you to, to really do research and to look into the things like this, because they are there and they are around and you can find things about them actually, unfortunately, more easily than you think you can, you just have to look beyond the most popular news places
Speaker 2 00:50:58 Yeah. And support cafe.
Speaker 0 00:51:00 That's right. Thank you. Woo. Um, Chris, is there any final things you want to say about your book and anything else?
Speaker 2 00:51:10 Um, yeah, I, I, like I said, I just really appreciate being on here. I, um, I'm always grateful when people read my work. I I'm grateful for that. And, um, you know, I just, I just, I'm sending this book out into the world and with, with hopes of it, bringing about some kind of justice and healing and whatever, you know, maybe small way that it might do that. And, um, you know, I think I, uh, one of the most basic teachings, you know, from my elders, that my elders is that, you know, every day that you wake up as a gift because it's another day that you're alive. And to just really remember that and, and to, you know, live out out of gratitude for being here and, and being part of this world, no matter how hard it is and how unfair and Justin cruel it can be. Um, there's still a lot of beauty and love in the world. And we make that choice every day about how we want to live that day and be in that day.
Speaker 0 00:52:12 Thank you so much, Kristen, what, is there something that is coming up? I know you, it's not been too long since you released this, right?
Speaker 2 00:52:22 Yeah. It just came out actually in July. So I
Speaker 0 00:52:25 Guess I shouldn't pressure you and say, what's next.
Speaker 2 00:52:29 Well, I'm working on a nonfiction book, actually. That's going to, there's going to be a lot of, um, historical research about the roots of MMI w murdered and missing indigenous women here in the U S so that's, that's, what's up next for me. And I'm also doing a reading at the loft in November with, uh, um, Susan Mona power. Who's an amazing Dakota art writer. And she's got a new book coming out about the boarding schools as well. So check the loft. Of course. I don't remember the date, but check the last website. Cause it's, I think it's going to be a really good reading and her work is just incredible.
Speaker 0 00:53:08 Can you, do you want people to have any contact info for you?
Speaker 2 00:53:13 Oh yeah. Um, Christine with a C H uh, stark.com is my website. And I always love to hear from people.
Speaker 0 00:53:22 Thank you so much, Chris. It's been great talking with you.
Speaker 2 00:53:27 Yeah. Good talking with you. Thank you so much for everything
Speaker 0 00:53:29 You do. Take care.
Speaker 2 00:53:31 All right. You too.
Speaker 0 00:53:35 This has been disability and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of KVI or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I've been the host of the show. Charlene doll is my research team. This is cafe 90.3, FM Minneapolis and cafe.org. If you'd like to be on our email list, you may email
[email protected]. We've been speaking tonight with Chris dark. She was talking about her novel carnival lights. This is disability and progress. Goodnight.
