Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:01:10 He has about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. Um, currently Chris's engineering for me. Thank you, Chris and Charlene dolls, my free search teams. Thank you, Charlene tonight, we're speaking with my Thor and we're talking about Bush fellowship and disability justice. Hello, my
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Hi Sam.
Speaker 0 00:01:34 How are you?
Speaker 2 00:01:36 I'm doing well. How are you doing
Speaker 0 00:01:40 Now that we're separated again? Will this ever end? Okay. Well, I'm glad you were able to come on and, um, thank you for doing so and sharing of your time. Um, I want to start out by talking a little bit about you before you got, um, involved in this Bush fellowship and whatnot. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 00:02:08 Sure. Yeah. So, um, I am, um, uh, identify as a more woman disabled, more woman. Um, I've been in a public service for like a gazillion years. Uh, I, I worked with the state of Minnesota for a long time in different capacities and, um, worked with different departments. Um, and then, um, I'm also, uh, a mom. I have two boys. Um, I have a partner and we all live in Stillwater, um, Oak park Heights actually, to be more specific, which is kind of considered Stillwater, at least Google things. So that's every time I use GPS. So, uh, but before that I lived in St. Paul for ever. So I'm definitely a St. Paul girl and yeah. So I'm glad to be back on the show. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 0 00:03:11 You're so welcome. Yes. I remember you several times where you've helped me set up things. Um, I want to start out now that you are doing this endeavor as a fellow. Um, talk a little bit about what a Bush fellowship is and what will you be doing as a fellow?
Speaker 2 00:03:33 Yes, so, um, a Bush fellowship is, um, awarded every year. It's an annual like fellowship award, um, that is given through the Bush foundation, which, um, many of the folks listening tonight are probably familiar with the Bush foundation. They're a pretty, well-known prominent foundation in Minnesota that, you know, funds many wonderful work, um, throughout our communities. Um, and so this fellowship, um, is given to individuals who, who have already achieved a certain level of, uh, accomplishment and leadership throughout their work, um, and their lived experiences, but are ready to like take that experience to the next level. So like, you know, it's really about, um, leadership development, which is kind of unique. Um, you know, when you think of it in the context of like, what other fellowships kind of tend to do, which is like maybe research-based or like more, um, like, you know, subject specific, um, a Bush fellowship is really about like investing in you.
Speaker 2 00:04:48 Um, that's what Bush says a lot to us as fellows. This is an investment in you and you, and so, um, you know, Bush fellows are people who are willing to dig deep and do what they're good at, um, even better. Um, but also they are willing and able to identify where they need improvement. Um, so a lot of what Bush fellows do is, uh, very self guided and, you know, um, a lot of that is based off of lived experience, um, and what they want to accomplish. Um, and so, you know, it could be like, you know, maybe you want to work with youth. Maybe you want to work in the indigenous community or maybe health and wellness. It really depends on what you, you know, what your passion lies. Um, you may want to get a master's degree or a doctorate, right? So you can do really anything.
Speaker 2 00:05:43 You, you are really passionate about with a Bush fellow. Um, and for me, I am a part of the 2021, uh, fellowship cohort, which is the very last, um, cohort that they just awarded. Um, I started back in August, that was the beginning of our fellowship, um, journey for, for my cohort. Um, and so I'm, I, and you've already said it I'm, my, my focus is not just my leadership development, but it's also, um, about disability justice and more specifically, um, you know, developing my own leadership, um, throughout that disability justice, uh, learning process. Do you think?
Speaker 0 00:06:28 No. How many, um, Bush fellowships are given out each year?
Speaker 2 00:06:33 Um, I want to say in my cohort anyway, there were about 24 of us. I mean, it's a large, you know, there, it's not like just four or five people. Um, Bush is, you know, bushes, a very generous foundation where they, they know that there's a lot of work to be done in, in our community and to, you know, they're really looking at transformational change. And so like, you know, we're talking to big change here. So, um, they, you know, they, um, have a large cohort every year that they award. And I, I, I believe in my cohorts, there's about 24, 25.
Speaker 0 00:07:11 How did you decide like what you were going to do and where you needed improvement because this is based on improving yourself to
Speaker 2 00:07:21 Right. Absolutely. Yeah, like I said, it's, it's, um, a big part of the journey so far. Well, uh, you know, overall anyway is to really be able to dig deep and identify where you're at in, you know, where you want to go. Um, and so it's been a time of self-reflection and like really sort of like taking stock of like, you know, what have I done so far, um, that is really going to help propel me even further as I, you know, begin this journey as a fellow. Um, but also what am I doing well and what am I not doing well, you know? Um, and, um, you know, I, it's a two year fellowship, so I have a, I have two years at the least to figure it out. Right. Um, but you know, when I, you know, you, you mentioned, you know, how did I know, I think I've always known.
Speaker 2 00:08:26 Um, and I think this is the case probably for a lot of fellows is that their passion lies in something. And they've always known that what that is. And, um, you know, they come to a point where they're like, okay, I, this is the time, you know, I need to apply for this fellowship because this is something that's really going to help me go to the next level that I want to be at. And that really, that was really the case for me. You know, I've always wanted to work on disability, justice. I just couldn't name it. You know, I couldn't name it until I had, you know, got all of the life experience that I got leading up to this point. Um, and now I can sort of say, okay, yes, this is what I want to do. You know, it's called disability justice. Um, and I want to help that happen for Minnesota. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:09:16 Can you talk a little bit about how you're planning to develop your leadership, you know, over the next two years?
Speaker 2 00:09:24 Well, I, um, first I'm planning on, um, taking a lot of, um, risks and really challenging myself. Um, you know, I think as people with disabilities, Sam, I think like we just, we don't have lots of opportunities to really like, um, be in situations where we can, um, take on those challenges, right. Because we're not given those opportunities a lot. Um, and so, um, you know, we, we had to, as fellows early on, when we first started, we took, uh, an assessment called the intercultural development inventory or the idea and that, that assessment I'm really thankful. It was a real gift to get that, um, to be able to take that assessment because it, um, you know, here, I'm thinking I'm like bad-ass and like this woke person, but, um, I think to an extent we all are, but I, um, what it, what the re the results of my assessment told me that, um, that I sorta need to humble myself and like really, um, take a look at some of the areas in my life that I still need to improve on, which is that I do need to take risks.
Speaker 2 00:10:48 And I do need to, um, understanding that, um, you know, I have this under, I have this underlying desire, um, throughout my work and my lived experience to want people to get along and be happy and, you know, kumbaya and all that sort of stuff, no matter, no matter who you are or what background you both, you know, you come from. Right. Um, but the truth is, um, you know, not everybody will get along all the time and that's something that I just asked you. Right. Yeah. And so, um, the, the risks that I have to take with that is that I need to feel okay when other people don't feel okay because that's just gonna happen. And, um, I don't always have to make every situation feel good and nice. Um, in fact, I should also be one of the people to make others feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 00:11:44 Um, and the result of that is that people may disagree with me. Um, or people may, may even like reject me, but that's okay. And so that's, that's part of my self evaluation throughout this journey is that I want to work on those areas because I know that I have much improvement yet to, to make. Um, but the other thing I'm working on Sam is that I wanna like, just dream really big, like really big, and, um, you know, again, as a person with a disability, I think we need to keep dreaming. Right. We need to think to see ourselves in the best version that we could possibly be, because we don't often get those opportunities. And, um, we're, don't, we don't often get to be put in spaces where we can dream big. Right. And this is true. Um, yeah. And so I I'm really soaking all that in right now, too.
Speaker 2 00:12:44 Um, you know, I'm, I'm trying to just really, um, open myself up and, you know, look at all the possibilities and opportunities that will be coming my way in the next two years. Um, really exploring, um, everything in it, you know, um, learning as much as I can and bushes really good at encouraging fellows to do that. They're always like, you know, just keep dreaming big and, you know, without barriers and it can be ridiculous. It can be like pie in the sky or completely off the charts. But, um, if that's what you're passionate about, that's what you're expected to do as a fellow is to really, really dream vague tacos
Speaker 0 00:13:27 A little bit about what is, what you feel disability justice is, and how did this moment like begin and what makes it different from disability rights model?
Speaker 2 00:13:41 Yeah. Um, for sure. So, uh, so let me start off by, um, just talking about the difference between disability justice and disability rights. Um, yes. So I think most folks would probably be more familiar with the disability rights model. Um, it's something that I think folks with disabilities, and I think, um, just folks in general are familiar with because of what we're taught and, um, you know, history and all that sort of stuff. Um, um, so the disability rights model, uh, has historically been about single issues, um, access, compliance, integration, equal opportunity, all of those things. Um, and so we're really talking about things like ADA and the rehab act and other, other policy level stuff that has, um, helped, um, like you and I, and other folks with disabilities, um, you know, achieve like a liberation, freedom and independence, you know, and all of those things are of course, extremely important, you know, for people with disabilities.
Speaker 2 00:14:59 And they, um, you know, they of course have impacted my life, um, positively, you know, and has helped me to achieve lots of things, um, as a member of my community. Right. Um, but I, I, so what disability, the disability rights model, um, actually leaves out though, is that intersection piece, which is really important, um, for our, our people, our disabled folks, um, because as you and I know disability is not a monolith, right. It's not just a single issue thing. Our people are not just like one type of people. We're all kinds of people. We're all cultures, we're all genders role, uh, sexual orientations. Some of us are immigrants. I'm raising my hand here, me, um, you know, we're all skin colors and all abilities, right. I mean, some of us have more invisible disabilities than others. Right. Um, so we're, we're just as diverse as any, any community of people.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 Um, and so the disability rights movement, um, by, by large really doesn't recognize that intersectional piece, um, uh, about our people as a culture and, um, to really, um, sort of illustrate this, uh, I'll talk about, um, employment as an example. Um, so disability rights has had a huge impact on employment, right? Um, the ADA has helped with this. Um, you know, its employment has been really impacted as far as like getting, helping folks with disabilities, getting jobs and, um, you know, not, you know, when discrimination is involved, um, including like getting accommodations and things like that. But, um, so, but there are a lot of folks with disabilities who cannot have like the typical nine to five job. Right. Um, and that's just, that's just the reality of the situation, you know, because again, we all have varying levels of disabilities and different types of disabilities.
Speaker 2 00:17:19 And, um, COVID has taught us this right. A nine to five doesn't work for all of us and, uh, being, uh, showing up Monday through Friday at a brick and mortar office building, it doesn't work for all of us. Right. So because folks with disabilities don't really fit under that conventional sort of like definition of what employment is, does that mean we are less than does that mean we should be valued differently or less than able body who can quote unquote work, um, in the normal sense. Um, so that's where disability justice, um, is, uh, you know, disability, justice addresses those kinds of things because what disability justice is saying versus what disability rights has not typically said is that we matter no matter what, no matter how much you can contribute, um, in an employment, you know, um, as far as like getting work, um, no matter what your disability is, no matter, um, your illness, your health issue, no matter if you are, you know, have schizophrenia or if you're bipolar or if you're autistic, um, no matter if you are an amputee or you have a service animal, right, doesn't matter, you have inherent value as a human being, um, and you matter, and you deserve love.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 Um, and that's something that I think the disability rights framework doesn't really focus on. Um, that's something that ADA doesn't really include. Right. Um, and so, um, I think, you know, for policy and for services and supports disability rights is wonderful and it's really done its job, but, um, you know, it doesn't address all of those other things that, um, you know, centers, those intersectional pieces, I just mentioned. And, um, I'll, I will say this too, that even with all of what, um, ADA and rehab and all the other great policies have, um, helped to achieve for folks with disabilities, the truth of the matter is Sam, is that a lot of folks with disabilities who are black and brown, indigenous, um, immigrants like myself and my family, um, we haven't been able to access those as easily either. You know? And so that in itself speaks to how, uh, disobey the disability rights, um, framework has been built up.
Speaker 2 00:20:03 Um, and so disability justice says no matter who you are, it doesn't matter where you come from the color of your skin, um, all those, all those things, you know, whether you're homeless or whether your, uh, completely, you know, just living in poverty or, um, whatever, um, if you're trans or whatever, um, you still have value and that you should still be able to access anything, you know, and you should still be able to, um, you know, not be oppressed essentially. So that's, I hope that kind of makes that clarification, um, between disability justice and disability rights, disability justice is a newer sort of movement that has not gotten that same momentum as just the disability rights framework. And that's what I'm really trying to achieve here in Minnesota is to really, um, help shed more light on what it is and why it's so important, um, for this work to come to Minnesota.
Speaker 0 00:21:09 Do you feel like eventually that the disability justice and disability rights should be kind of together?
Speaker 2 00:21:18 It absolutely should. Absolutely. Um, you know, I, I think, um, there, there, when I, so when I talk about the disability rights movement, really, um, being a framework that was built up, um, to, um, you know, uh, folks who can access some of the things that it's helped achieve, uh, mainly, you know, white, disabled folks in, uh, their families. Um, there's really truth to that. Um, because I think that, um, because of that separation that you just talked about, you know, um, and so I think that with more awareness around what disability justice really is, you know, um, there's also going to be that component of equity in the disability work that, um, that needs to be done in Minnesota.
Speaker 0 00:22:17 You kind of talk about, and some of your stuff, um, like the 10 principles of disability justice. Do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 2 00:22:29 Sure. Yeah. So, so, um, disability justice, um, was sort of like, I guess, like created or established, um, back in 2005 by, um, um, a group of queer disabled, um, activists. Um, these were a group of, um, disabled women of color also, and they came together. Um, these women, um, they, they were Patty Berne, Mia Mingus, and the late, um, Stacy Millburn. Um, we just lost her a couple of years ago. She was really powerful, um, disability, activists. Um, they came together because of all of the things that I've just talked about, you know, as far as like that intersectional piece that has been missing in the disability rights movement, um, you know, they, they were like, yes, we totally acknowledge and affirm the fact that the disability rights framework was wonderful and it helped us achieve so much as disabled folks, but there is so much else that needs to, um, you know, happen.
Speaker 2 00:23:45 And so they, you know, really put together this disability justice framework and, you know, got, got help from a bunch of other disabled folks to build up this disability justice, um, groundwork, you know, if you will. And this started over in the west coast, in the bay area of California and San Francisco. And so they, um, out of that, um, groundwork came 10, these 10 principles and I'll name them real quick, but I won't go into them too much. Um, I can give you a resource if folks want to go online and, um, get a, get a better look at what they are and what they really, um, what each category, which each principal is. But, um, so their intersectionality leadership of those impacted anticapitalist politics, going back to, you know, what the definition of employment is, um, cross movement solidarity, recognizing wholeness, sustainability commitment to cross disability solidarity, which is so important, but it doesn't happen often, unfortunately, um, interdependence, collective access and collective liberation. So that's really, um, those tens 10 principles are really what disability justice is grounded in. And, um, that's, uh, I think those 10 principles are wonderful things to adopt for folks who want to do this work.
Speaker 0 00:25:21 Talk a little bit about what your definition of ableism is.
Speaker 2 00:25:28 So to me, um, Abel ism is really, it's basically just the oppression of people with disabilities, um, plain and simple. Um, it's when people with disabilities are treated unfairly, um, unequal, um, when we, when our able-bodied counterparts are able to do something that we are not, um, or, you know, um, yeah, or we don't have access to. So basically it's, it's oppression of people with disabilities and, you know, you, and I know that ableism manifests itself in so many ways. Right. And I mean, I can ramble off like 20 just within like, you know, an hour of my day probably. Um, but so, I mean, it can be very over able ism can be very overt. Like you can identify it right away, or it can be like kind of sneaky, you know, it could be sneaky and, um, subtle and not, not as easy to identify right away.
Speaker 2 00:26:41 Um, like it could, uh, it could happen in the form of a microaggression. Right. And it could build up over time. Um, so, uh, uh, you know, I think that ableism is all around us all the time. You know, it's just like racism. It, I mean, our, our society is built on racism, you know? Um, but I also want to argue that our society is also built on ableism. Um, but it's not even about equalism or racism. It's about oppression because that's essentially what isms are really right. It's about people who have power and do whatever they can at any cost to keep their power and to continue to take power away from others so that they can maintain their power. So that's really what, um, that's really how this country was built. Right. Um, and of course there were many things that are good, but, um, you know, I mean, if we look at how our, our, at our history and how, um, you know, how things have shaped out, um, there are lots of folks out there who have no power, none whatsoever, um, because they continuously get it taken away from them or, um, are so oppressed that it doesn't even matter what kind of power they have, you know, it, it has no influence whatsoever.
Speaker 2 00:28:15 So yeah,
Speaker 0 00:28:16 I do hear a lot about oppression and I, I want to play devil's advocate desk for a minute, um, because I think oppression is really real and it happens all the time. And you can, if you look at any, almost any situation, you could find it. Um, but I want to say, I wonder if it gets overused, like if it's, if there's too much of some times it can be overly sensitive about it. And where do you draw that line? Is there anything you can, you know, kind of share with us on that behalf to,
Speaker 2 00:28:56 Um, well, you know, I, I appreciate that question. Um, and I, and I think, um, you know, uh, I'm thinking lots of things here, um,
Speaker 0 00:29:12 I mean, maybe you have not experienced that part, but sometimes I feel like there is, you know, people can easily use, let's just play. I always call it the disability card to be able to do something that maybe they shouldn't be able to do. And, um, where that sometimes is an advantage that is taken of them. But if you use it too many times in, in the wrong situation where it just gives you, um, ease of whatever, because you feel like you needed or are, are, um, you know, some people, I always think of the word entitled sometimes I think that that can be misused. And then I wonder where, you know, where it gets really sticky in regards to, um, when is the it oppression and when it is the other person taking advantage of the situation.
Speaker 2 00:30:05 Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, I, I, I see, um, oppression as like, um, you know, a real sort of like, um, it, throughout history it's existed since the creation of our country. Right. Um, and so I think that that's, so when I'm talking about oppression, that's what I'm talking about. I'm, I'm not talking about, you know, me as a wheelchair user trying to get in front of the line and, uh, you know, BTS concert, um, which I know lots of folks do, um, you know, um, people using their grandma's disability placard to be able to park closer at a Vikings game. Right. I mean, that's totally different. And I don't think that stems out of the kind of oppression I'm talking about. Um, and I, and I, you know, I agree with you, um, Sam, that, you know, there are certain situations that do need to be dealt with case by case.
Speaker 2 00:31:17 Um, but I absolutely absolutely. And, um, but I, I'm talking about like, you know, this deep rooted, systemic oppression that's been around for decades, you know, and how this has evolved into sort of like, you know, why people disabilities in a much broader sense are, um, treated as second class citizens, you know? Um, and so there are me, absolutely. There are, I think when you bubble up to the surface, there are people who do abuse, sort of that, um, systemic oppression that is, has existed for decades. Right. And they use it to their advantage, um, and that's that's gonna happen, you know, but when you look at our oppression and how it's existed over history and, um, culturally, um, you're going to see lots of crossover in how, like, um, black folks were treated, um, versus how disabled folks were treated. Um, and, you know, throughout history, I think, uh, the dominant culture, mainly the white culture, um, has always played on the side of the people who hold power and are trying to oppress others who don't look like them. Um, and re you know, that's really how it's been done throughout the course of history. And there are so many similarities there. And so when I'm talking about oppression, that's really what I'm talking about and like how that has been deeply rooted in everything that we do, um, in our daily lives and, um, how disability justice can really help us, um, sort of unpack all that stuff and, um, help, help sort of work through some of that oppression, um, not just for ourselves, but for other, I think other people who have experienced similar,
Speaker 0 00:33:28 I want to take this opportunity to ask, you know, Charlene Charlene is my research person, and she often, I kind of take a little bit of time to ask her if she has any questions. And, um, just to test her, to see if she was listening, no skidding,
Speaker 3 00:33:44 Uh, I'm here. And I was a victim of, uh, of, uh, oppression when I was working for the VA as they kind of work the job around so that I really couldn't do some of the functions and they, we parted ways. And, you know, that's been 15 years ago now, so, uh, this is real stuff and I'm glad somebody, like I is out there trying to figure out how we can make it better.
Speaker 0 00:34:14 So my, um, you will be, you know, continuing the, to be a Bush fellow and until 2023. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:34:24 So
Speaker 0 00:34:26 Besides improving on your strengths, are there, what do you hope to be doing for society as far as improving on that part?
Speaker 2 00:34:39 Well, I, so, like I mentioned before, I, I officially started, um, last August. So, um, I've already had a few months now, um, doing this work and, um, you know, it's just been an amazing experience, a really, just a wonderful experience. Um, so, so I can talk a little bit about what I, what I've already worked on and what I will continue to work on in the coming, I guess, year and a half now that it's left. Um, so, you know, um, as, as fellows, we have to like submit a work plan and budget and all that for Bush. And, um, I, you know, so I already had a good idea of like all the things I wanted to work on and what this work plan that I developed. And, um, one of the first things that made the most sense for me, uh, to work on, um, right away was, you know, before doing all this heavy work about disability, justice and equalism and oppression and all that sort of stuff, I really wanted to address trauma and healing and, uh, through, you know, through a disability context.
Speaker 2 00:35:59 Right. And, um, you know, there is a lot of trauma when it comes to ableism. Um, yeah. And, and, you know, I think a lot of folks with disabilities, um, you know, they, their lives have been impacted in one way or another, um, with ableism and, um, uh, again, we don't have the same opportunities as other folks do to talk about these things. Um, and the main reason why I wanted to really focus on these issues was because one, like I just said, you know, I just wanted to create a space, right. To be able to do that. But at the same time, you know, in order to do this good work, um, for our community, that will hopefully be transformational. Um, you really have to know where you're coming from. Right. You really have to kind of know exactly where you're at. Like you have, you can't like try to fix other people's problems until unless you kind of have an idea of what your own problems are.
Speaker 2 00:37:10 Right. And so, and then it also was an opportunity to get a group of disabled folks together and sort of like, say, this is what I'm working on and kind of build capacity also. Um, so what I did was I partnered with, um, uh, disability activists out in, um, Portland, um, uh, meet those Sara and, um, they were excellent to work with. Um, and then also I worked with a local group called the Minnesota peacebuilding Institute. Um, their expertise is in, uh, uh, trauma and, um, healing and, um, um, restorative justice. And so we all worked together on putting these two talking circles together. Um, one was in November and one just happened in January on, um, uh, trauma, uh, from Pima with him. Um, and it was really, it was a really, um, positive experience for me to be able to hear, excuse me, um, what other folks had to say about, um, how ableism has impacted their life.
Speaker 2 00:38:28 Um, and so that was, um, one of the first things that I did. And then, um, I also, um, worked a little bit on doing, um, you know, just learning as much as I can about disability justice. And so I did lots of research and reading. Um, I also to really like, um, be able to capture the, sort of like intersection between racial and disability justice. I did a lot of, um, I attended a couple of, um, um, racial justice focus, conferences and trainings. Um, so that was really, you know, that was really interesting as well. So I learned a lot. Um, and then I'm also trying to get my certification in, uh, ADA coordinator, um, being certified in, uh, 80. And so I did that too. Um, so those are some of the things that I started off with in my first quarter, as a Bush fellow, um, looking forward, I'm going to probably shift gears a little bit and, um, work with some local folks to get together, um, regularly and, um, you know, put together monthly meetings with folks who are interested in doing this work and, um, maybe offer up some trainings, um, and bring in a couple of speakers, um, and then pull in folks from, um, from our community who are, um, doing social justice work also so that we can all sort of like learn from one another.
Speaker 2 00:40:14 Um, and so that'll, that'll go on, um, until, well, probably the end of my fellowship and what, what I plan on, you know, achieving hopefully is that I will have this community informed, uh, disability justice framework at the end of what we do. And it it'll, it'll be a tool and a resource that, um, can be used in order to, uh, you know, embed disability, justice work in, you know, in all the work that happens in Minnesota.
Speaker 0 00:40:53 You know, um, I want to step back a minute because, and you alluded to this and, you know, the term racial justice, I think gets used and tossed around a lot, but you don't hear a lot about disability justice, as you say, and where you talk as you know about that, and that they're really not very different from each other. Can you talk about how they are related?
Speaker 2 00:41:22 Yeah. So, um, so I, I want to go back to my, um, comments a little bit ago about oppression and, um, you know, I, I, I talked about it a little bit, um, as far as like how that's happened, um, throughout history and, and one of the trainings that I attended, um, it was with a group called race forward, and I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but there are, um, they put on a really excellent training. It was a two-part training that I attended. And, um, yeah, I agree with you, Sam, that Rachel is a very common phrase now. Um, um, one thing I will say it before I talk about these trainings is, um, you know, I see a lot, I see a big shift happening in, um, the work that, um, at least, uh, disability advocacy or organizations have been doing as of late, um, because, you know, because we've been working off of this disability rights framework for so many years now, um, that, I mean, that really was like led by able-bodied white people.
Speaker 2 00:42:40 Right. I mean, yeah. I mean, it was, you know, we have to admit to ourselves that that's, that's how our work has, um, essentially started. Um, and so I think what's happening now is, um, especially after George Floyd was killed, I think a lot of folks really had to re-pivot and had to sort of, um, like do a reset, right? Like, okay, we're doing this good, this good work on behalf of people with disabilities, but we're all like, able-bodied like, none of us are disabled and we're all white, you know, none of us are black or of us around. Um, and so like, if we're really trying to help, um, disabled folks, then we really need to sort of like, like we gotta represent. Right. And so, um, I, so I see that happening and that's really great. Um, so that right there tells me that even in the disability work that's been happening over, um, all these years, um, that it's really only been happening with the leadership of white able-bodied people.
Speaker 2 00:43:47 Um, and so like, I'm glad that's happening, you know, that that realization has come to fruition and that it's changing, but to go back to, um, these racial justice trainings that I've had, um, you know, when, um, black folks were brought over as slaves, um, they were like, there was so much, um, you know, lie, there were so many lies and, um, lots of, um, just a perpetuation of like how they were stupid and feebleminded, and that they were barbarians that they met, they had couldn't control their quote unquote animal urges, and we're going to come after life and your children. Right. And that the only way they could be contained in any way, shape or form was if white people controlled them. Right. Well, let's look at how people with disabilities have been treated over history. We have been called that we are people minded that we're stupid, that we don't know what's best for us.
Speaker 2 00:45:00 Um, which is why lots of us were locked up in institutions for years and years, um, and completely forgot about right. People to be around us. People were like, they're going to do whatever to our wives and our children too. So we see the parallel here. Folks, do we see the intersections here, folks? I mean, that's what I'm talking about here. When I, when, and, you know, to your point specifically about racial justice and disability justice, when you don't have racial justice, if you leave disability out of that conversation. Okay. I mean, like, and people really need to stop doing that. There. I would agree. There is no racial justice, if you do not include disability, justice and mat, because it really is of the same vein of oppression. It really is
Speaker 0 00:45:51 Same things that happen in racial justice happened in disability, justice, you know, the same, the same discriminations and the same, you know, pick your poison. So, um, one of the things though that I have seen, and I'm interested in knowing how you can think to incorporate into what you're doing is I, you know, I understand that discussion on how the, you know, how the ADA was, uh, done a lot with, um, white able bodied people. But I, I, I wish that there was a way to get, I guess I don't feel like.
