Speaker 0 00:00:11 Am I on FM, Minneapolis? Yeah. That O R G we are in pledge drive and it's our one week pledge drive. And this is disability and progress. The views expressed on this are not necessarily those of cafe, but I think tonight they are. Um, my name is Sam. I'm the host of the show, thanks to, uh, many people for assisting me. Thank you, Jackson. Um, and you can turn it up a little more if you want. And then, um, also thanks to Elmer and Charlene doll will be coming in soon with, um, helping me with zoom with pledging, but you can pledge going to cafe Ida or gee, do we have the phones available to Jackson? Yes. Ah, 3 7 5 9 0 3 0 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3 0. And tonight we're going to hear, um, um, way back a little bit back on self-driving cars. So we are going to listen to that and then we're going to break for another pledge, but hopefully you'll enjoy listening to this past thing of self-driving cars. Meanwhile, go to 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3 0 and or KFC or RG and pledge. Thank you, Mr. Paul Brewbaker. Paul is the president of the Alliance of transportation innovation, and we'll be speaking about self-driving vehicles. Good evening, Paul. Hey
Speaker 1 00:01:42 Sam, how are you and Charlene, thanks for doing the research on this and do without you.
Speaker 0 00:01:47 That's exactly it. People don't realize how much. Um, so, uh, thanks so much for joining me and I appreciate you coming on. Uh, let's start out by talking about, um, what is Alliance for transportation, transportation, and innovation. What is that?
Speaker 1 00:02:06 Yeah, we're a, uh, we're a not-for-profit uh, what the IRS likes to call it a social welfare organization we're focused curly w we are, um, it's, it's a funky distinction, uh, to be sure, but, um, and, and the reason why, I guess we're classified as a social welfare organization, because we're focused on accelerating the deployment of any innovation that will, uh, that will dramatically improve the safe and efficient movement of people and goods. So we're really kind of at the, at the intersection, if you will, no pun intended of, of transportation, uh, and technology. Huh.
Speaker 0 00:02:46 And so I'm curious, like how, give me some history of you. How did you get involved with something like this?
Speaker 1 00:02:55 So this goes back probably like close to three decades. I've been in, in and out of government, my entire adult life, uh, and starting with, I worked in local government and then I worked in the general accounting office doing cost schedule and performance audits of federal programs. And I got really interested in transportation there. And then I spent some time on Capitol hill, uh, doing, um, doing policy around technology and that, uh, landed in, into, uh, in a lot in the transportation space, particularly around aviation and the modern modernization of the air traffic control system, which, um, ultimately led to some positions that, you know, in various agencies. And I wound up, uh, in the Bush administration being the administrator for research and innovative technology, uh, which, you know, I was kind of front and center in, in that whole, um, convergence of transportation and technology and, and was responsible for innovation policy.
Speaker 1 00:03:56 And that was at the time where DARPA had funded what was called the urban challenge, which was really sort of the birth of autonomous vehicles as we think about them today. And, and, uh, it was, it was a competition to see who could, who could navigate an urban environment, um, without, without a driver. Uh, and so the whole thing really kind of got started in the defense advanced research projects agency, which is part of the defense department and, and really kind of the same folks that, that, uh, gave birth to the internet, which used to be called ARPA, the advanced research projects agency at any event. Uh, yeah. So got a, had a background in this stuff for a while, and that was sort of the birth of, of autonomous vehicles as we think about them today. And, and the pace of, of technology developments has been amazing in the last decade. And we are where we are today because of it,
Speaker 0 00:04:49 The competition is still on.
Speaker 2 00:04:53 Totally.
Speaker 0 00:04:55 Can you kill people? You know, I think people think a lot about exactly what is a self-driving vehicle. So if someone were to ask you that, what would be the definition you'd give besides the option I would give
Speaker 1 00:05:07 It, it's a highly sophisticated, um, sensor platform, sensor and computing platform. And, and what it does is it sees around it it's, it's, it's chassis, if you will, 360 degrees, and you can, you can gain a level of situational awareness that allows you to detect, uh, oncoming traffic or other traffic on the road. And as well as, uh, um, you know, pedestrians or even, you know, other obstacles in the street, uh, and it leverages artificial intelligence and machine learning to, to, uh, basically make machine decisions, uh, steering adjustments, speed, uh, make those decisions autonomously without human intervention that will optimize the flow of traffic and protect the occupants, which is objective.
Speaker 0 00:05:59 So not very long ago, there was a kind of always heard this idea about what exactly what an autonomous vehicle be like, would it have a stealing, well, would it not have a steering wheel? And is there any consensus on this?
Speaker 1 00:06:16 Yeah, so, uh, yeah. Uh, so the, uh, the society of automotive engineers has, has a five level, um, uh, degree of autonomy, uh, zero to five and zero is sort of, uh, and, uh, you know, level one or sort of, uh, what you have today. And then you have things like adaptive cruise control, which, which represents, uh, more of the, the level two and really kind of Tesla is a good example. What they call a self-driving Tesla is a good example of a level two. It's an advanced, um, uh, it's an it's advanced, um, uh, you know, collision avoidance, if you will, it's it detects, um, uh, you know, other vehicles in the area, the detects blame striping, but it's not a truly autonomous vehicle. It's not like a level three is one where you can actually allow the car to drive itself for an extended period of time.
Speaker 1 00:07:14 An Audi is actually an interest of full disclosure to Audi as a member of our organization, but Audi released a level three, uh, self-driving or autonomous vehicle, if you will, as a level three, autonomous vehicle, uh, has varying levels of autonomy, uh, in Barcelona earlier this year. And it's going to come a commercial in the United States, probably late 2018, early 2019. Um, and that is a, that's a level three. And that's really, uh, you know, I think Audi's kind of taken the right approach on this because they're going to deploy those vehicles, but they're only going to be operable and level three autonomous mode, uh, at relatively low speed, like less than 35 miles an hour on divided highways, uh, because they they're, they're, they're using an over abundance of caution just to make sure that there aren't any incidents with the vehicle. And that's, you know, in our mind, that's a pretty smart thing to do, but it's ideal for, for, uh, for congested environments and crowded highways.
Speaker 1 00:08:12 And then you've got other low speed vehicles like, uh, uh, Navea Arma, or, uh, uh, two French companies who are leaders in the space, easy mile, which is another one or, uh, a vehicle that's made in the United States by a company called local motors, which has these micro factories. And they actually build these, um, these Ali's Olla is the name of the vehicle, uh, using a 3d printer. And those are level four. They have no, no steering wheel, no driver there they're programmed, uh, to operate, uh, some are capable of operating, you know, origin to destination much in the way you think about a, a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, an Uber application where you basically, you know, tell the vehicle to come pick me up at X spot, take me to Y spot, and it will get you there, but I'll, I'll be slowly, uh, maximum speed on these are roughly 25 miles an hour.
Speaker 1 00:09:12 And it's just, um, it's not exactly a, uh, you know, speed racer, but again, it's, it's, it's a level four autonomous vehicle. And what level four means is simply that it does not operate in all weather conditions. Um, and so in, in cases of, you know, heavy fog or extreme weather conditions where most humans don't do a very good job of driving, they, um, uh, those those can operate. And the interesting thing is, I mean, we've worked with, um, uh, we'll just give you a prime example. We did an AAV road trip this past, um, winter, where we took a autonomous vehicle that's produced by the French company, easy mile, um, across the country. And we took it to a number of locations and it has, uh, an accessible ramp where, uh, you know, it's not what you would call fully ADA compliant, but it certainly is accessible, um, uh, where you can, you can, you know, get a wheelchair on board and, or get a motorized scooter onboard, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 0 00:10:17 That is cool. Can, can we describe
Speaker 3 00:10:21 The difference in the terminology self-driving versus autonomous vehicle?
Speaker 1 00:10:27 Yeah, so autonomy, you know, a, I think the easiest way to think about this is that a autonomous vehicle has varying levels of autonomy. In other words, it can make decisions on its own and, and it ranges, like I said, like those, um, SAE levels, uh, those are levels of autonomy. Um, a self-driving car is one that has the, the capability of, of truly driving itself. It's the, it's what everybody, I think in their mind sort of thinks of, Hey, hands off, you know, not only hands off the steering wheel, but there's really no need for a, a steering wheel. Um, uh, and you can, um, uh, you can, you know, it's full automation all the time. Uh, and it just drives itself from point a to point B. So that would be your level five. That would be our level five. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:11:22 And there seems to be, there's a number of players that are in the field. You talked about all these players. I don't know. I know about Google and general motors and Tesla, and, but there's other players, it seems like many more than we even hear about is there, uh, it seems like really the race really truly is on because whoever gets that fleet successfully working and accepted, you know, people are gonna flock. So is there, who is ahead currently? And if so, how are they doing it? Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:11:57 Well, I, you know, it's, it's really interesting. There are a lot of, uh, a lot of players on the scene ranging from, you know, startup companies. Uh, and, and by the way, as we are speaking, there are probably new startups coming, uh, coming on the scene, like, uh, you know, Aurora innovation, aro and coast, autonomous, who are, who are startups, um, in this space, uh, who are building, um, uh, you know, kits, uh, or even vehicles that would have certain degrees of autonomy. You've got companies like robotics research who were building bolt on kits for, uh, tactical vehicles for the military that allows a certain degree of, of higher, full automation of, of, you know, tactical vehicles for the military. Then you've got the traditional players, you've got, you know, the GM and the, and the, the, um, and the Fords of the world who are playing in this and Volvo and, and, uh, you know, just a lot of, it's a, it's a very crowded dynamics right now, um, with a lot of innovation.
Speaker 1 00:13:01 And then you've got some non-obvious players who were really in the it world, um, like Baidu, uh, it was a Chinese company. Um, you've got apple, uh, who is, is experimenting. Of course, everybody's familiar with the Google car, which is now, uh, branded as Waymo, uh, that is out there. And then like certain companies like cruise automation had been a startup, and then they got acquired by GM. And there they are arguably one of the leaders in the space right now because of the advancements that they've made, um, just in terms of, of the advancement of their, of their compute power, uh, their ability to, you know, reliably, um, navigate city streets. And they're out in complex environments and complex urban environments, um, testing their vehicles, looking for what they call edge cases, which are unpredictable experiences. Like a lot of the one thing you probably need to be familiar with is that when it comes to, you know, more of the traditional type driving tasks, that dynamic driving tasks that everybody sort of thinks about, um, there was a lot of artificial intelligence that needs to go into that and a lot of recognition of, of the environment.
Speaker 1 00:14:13 So you're seeing things like LIDAR, which stands for, um, uh, light detection and ranging and radar and sonar and camera systems that are all scanning the environment. And that's a ton of data, and it all has to be processed through chip sets. And chip sets are made by companies like Nvidia and Intel and Qualcomm who are, are at the heart of the computing capability that is enabling self-driving. So there's a lot of complexity in this. Um, and then there's also some things where these systems really kind of need to be taught what to recognize, like they need to recognize cyclists and pedestrians and year, and even there's a famous case with new Tonomy, which is a company that was, um, uh, that's based in, in Boston, uh, who just got bought by Delphi automotive. Cause Delphi's in the game to continental all the, all the tier one suppliers, all the so-called tier one suppliers in the auto industry are in this game too.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 Um, Delphi just bought new autonomy and Deuteronomy had like this amazing case where, uh, you know, they're in Boston and they're testing by the seat, uh, by the Seaport. And they would run into flocks of seagulls around trash and the, the computer wasn't sure whether that was a snowbank or a rock or some kind of obstacle, but they knew it was something, you know, like a human would recognize those seagulls and just sort of creep up on them until they dissipated, but not, not the vehicle, the vehicle would just stop. So there's, there's still, there's still a lot of development that needs to be done. Uh, admittedly, you know, they worked hard and kinda got around that, but these are the edge cases that, that are arising before this becomes, you know, completely ubiquitous and the way that people think about it, where you've got a number of these, you know, level five fully automated vehicles out on the road.
Speaker 1 00:16:04 And there were these interim steps that we're going to take, uh, in the meantime where we're going to be, we're going to be like the first adoption is probably going to be these low speed shuttles. And it might be, um, uh, tractor trailers operating with, uh, you know, with either either native developed by native developed. I mean, the companies themselves are developing the autonomous technology or, or, um, or the technology may be developed by, uh, by a third party. Um, that is a bolt on system like, like Uber has, which used to be auto, uh, out on the west coast.
Speaker 0 00:16:44 So there's a lot of people excited about this, including me. Um, who's not excited about it
Speaker 1 00:16:56 Truthfully. There's a lot of fear and in the public's mind, um, uh, out there, because as I like to say, you know, Stanley Kubrick did us no favors in 2001 space Odyssey when hell did not open, of course, Shane, right. And was just all like you have this dystopian future where the machine takes over. And I got to tell ya, the public's genuinely concerned. I mean, pew research, AAA, there've been a ton of studies out there that describe the public's concern or the lack of trust in the underlying automation. Right. Um, and, and it's not entirely unfounded. And it's one of the reasons why we went out and did this 80 road trip. Um, and the reason why I say it's not unfounded is because their experience with, you know, commercial technology, uh, has not been the greatest. I mean, everybody's had their iPhone crashed or smartphone crash or had problems with angry birds, but I will tell you that, that the level of rigor and discipline that goes into the software development testing and, and even the modeling and simulation around this underlying technology pales and compare, I mean, it is so much more intense than the kind of stuff that goes into like deploying angry birds, for example, right?
Speaker 1 00:18:17 So these levels have a whole different level of rigor and discipline, and we just have to do a lot to assuage public concern. And I know like the national safety council and some others have have programs underway where they're trying to assuage public concerns. One of the reasons why we took these level four shuttles out, um, on this national AAV tour was so that people could experience them. Political leaders can experience them firsthand citizens could experience experienced them, firsthand people in the disability community could experience them firsthand, um, and, and really kind of kick the tires and help us wage public concern with the underlying technology. And I got to tell you, the thing that I found really, really, uh, awesome about that whole experience was that they said most people who experienced it said like, this is just unremarkable. It's like a boring ride.
Speaker 1 00:19:05 We're just going back this parking lot. We did all these tests on, on closed tracks. They're going around a parking lot or this close track and saying, look, this just isn't, isn't that exciting? I mean, it's kind of boring, frankly. And, uh, and so these underlying systems are pretty good and you're going to see, I think these level four shuttles being deployed in a lot of different places, uh, sooner rather than later, to do things like first mile last mile, um, uh, you know, pick up where they integrate with the public transit system perhaps, or, uh, they're in, you know, small communities, retirement communities, where they're making routes to, um, uh, you know, to places of convenience, uh, stores, um, entertainment, districts, and so forth
Speaker 0 00:19:49 With me. And we are waiting for pledges. We love to hear from you by the way, everybody I'm not lying about this. Charlene will tell you today is my birthday. Isn't it Charlene? It is. And you're 29, I'm 29 forever. Um, and also thanks to LMR Armar graciously came in to help the engineer. Um, and we always love to hear from you. So if you can give us a shout by calling 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3 0, or go to TFA high.org and give us a pledge, we're going to continue hearing some of more of the self-driving cars. And we will be back in a little bit. If you look at the statistics, you talk about, you know, the public sphere and that's, that's true if, if I could scare myself on things. Um, but there's hundreds of people killed on the, on the highways and roads every day, every day.
Speaker 0 00:20:44 And if you every day, maybe even more, but, but for sure, you probably have those statistics, but for sure, um, you're going to have accidents with these cars. There's no way to get out of not ever having one to learn from them. And so what I, what I wonder is though it seems like we set these standards so high, and if you look at human error, we're so much, you know, there's so much lower that we make so many mistakes, so what's going to be acceptable for the car. You know, as far as error rate, that's kind of what I want. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:19 So we're holding, we're holding. I believe we hold AVS to a much higher standard than we hold the status quo, right? Satisfies almost get to buy. And people forget that, that, you know, we do. And the number is a hundred people a day. It's 36,000 people, um, die on the highways every year. And, and what's worse about this is millions more or are injured or maimed and somewhat permanently get, you know, get permanently disabled right through these crashes. And we don't call them accidents. We call them crashes because isn't it, the points out 94% of all vehicle crashes are directly related to human error. So, um, so you know, this, this goes to your point exactly to your point, um, that we're holding, uh, autonomous vehicles to a significantly higher standard that we seem to be holding, uh, you know, uh, our own, our own skills and abilities, uh, when it comes to getting behind the wheel.
Speaker 1 00:22:19 And we do have this over exaggerated sense of our own control. Um, you know, those of us who do drive and it's, it's, it's still, it's not, it's not born out by the numbers. It would be, I would much rather get into a vehicle that had modern sensor technology and artificial intelligence and the computing power to make these decisions far better than I can, because let's face it. I mean, the computers and the technology, they don't get tired, they don't drink and drive, you know, get drowsy. They don't, it's just safer. Right? Exactly. Or any, any of the other antisocial behaviors?
Speaker 0 00:22:59 What, uh, what is a law, if anything say, is it working on anything like about insurance? How does that work?
Speaker 1 00:23:09 Yeah. So the, um, so that it's, that it's hard. I'm not a lawyer. So I kind of by saying that, but, but there are a lot of people who, uh, and I've, I've heard a lot of lawyers on stage basically suggest that, that, um, there's a tricky, there's a tricky spot for the liability. Um, uh, but in the instance where the vehicle was taken over, where the vehicle controls are taken over by the human, the humans responsible for it, the humans, the one who has the liability and the extent that the autonomous systems are, are, are being engaged, then vehicle manufacturer,
Speaker 0 00:23:47 I was wondering if that's, that's what puts a lot of pressure on them to be as accurate as possible because they don't want to pay for more, you know, store. And
Speaker 1 00:23:57 That is why I think so much of this. And, and by the way that we've got this like era of transparency and visibility and the things that are happening now, and, you know, in this era of, uh, you know, social media and the ability to detect and communicate really rapidly, it's, it's, um, uh, it's really interesting to see the level of attention that things get, uh, when there are, um, issues that arise. And I can give it to CATIA airbag issue where I think, what is it, 13 people died on, uh, as a result of the Takata air, defective airbags. And again, we lose a hundred people every day on the highways. And I almost think, and I, you know, I, I think it's very tragic that we lost people as a result of that cut airbag, defective airbag issue. But the reality is, um, we lose so many more people every single day, uh, they get hurt and then people who wind up getting permanently, um, injured through, through these crashes.
Speaker 1 00:24:54 Uh, it, just, to me, I think, I think there should be like a sense of urgency about accelerated deployment, which is one of the reasons why, why we started this organization was to really kind of make that social, public interest business case around accelerated deployment of AVS, um, for a whole host of reasons that, you know, safety obviously, um, uh, you know, accessibility certainly. Um, and just a whole bunch of, of, of, of benefits that to us are just so you know, just so obvious, uh, you get rid of crash related congestion on the roads. And how many times have you been in a vehicle where you're sitting behind a fender bender, right. And then you think about the ability to be more productive, uh, productive in your vehicle, uh, while it's moving. And then, and then, you know, you could, if you think about also the expense of car ownership, when you're basically buying a vehicle and in some, some households, you know, transportation is the second highest household expense for healthcare, you know, right, right behind the mortgage. And if you think about the fact that we pay so much money for, you know, the cars, the payments, the insurance, the gas, um, and it sits idle 92% of the time. It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 0 00:26:18 So are people thinking, or are these cars tending to be electric or gas? And if, and also do you think that it will be, uh, people will actually buy, or will these be rented situations?
Speaker 1 00:26:35 Yeah, so we think the real future of mobility, uh, and that's how we like to phrase it is elect. It's going to be electric, autonomous and shared. And we think that like the, the electrification of, of, of the motor vehicles is a trend that has critical mass. It just simply isn't going to be stopped for any reason. Now, admittedly, there will be this transition era and there will be people who are always going to like, uh, uh, you know, the, the petrol engine. But the reality of the situation is you see this, this inflection point taking place where you've got companies like, like Volvo saying that they're not gonna produce anymore, um, uh, internal combustion engine vehicles, and they're not going to offer them for sale. And you just saw GM make a big pivot on this. You saw a Ford motor make a pivot on this.
Speaker 1 00:27:27 And, and a lot of that I think is being driven in some cases by the Chinese market. You know, we're trying to is basically saying, look, we're not, we're not, uh, uh, we're not gonna allow any internal combustion engines on our roads, or we're not gonna allow any, any of them to be produced in our country. And, and it just sends a signal to the market that the future of any transportation is going to be, uh, electrified. Now there's a whole infrastructure issue that's going to need to be dealt with, like, we've got to deploy the infrastructure. It takes up a lot of power and we're going to have to figure out how to do more power generation because energy is energy,
Speaker 0 00:28:04 Right. There's a whole distance, you know, you can only go so far
Speaker 1 00:28:09 Range anxiety. Yeah. But Hey, you got to remember too that, you know, we had range anxiety in the early days of the, of the, of the car. I mean, you know, you just, you could get oats anywhere for your horse and, uh, but, or, you know, the horse could eat grass and keep moving. But, you know, in the early days of the internal combustion engine, the petrol stations were few and far between,
Speaker 0 00:28:37 Ah, good. I, that's a good concept there to hold on to. Um, so you've made an interesting comment and I think it's been talked about out there that, um, that cabs will be probably along with trucks, that there'll be a whole cab situation where the cab is just sent for you and there'll be no driver. How does this affect, I mean, how close is this?
Speaker 1 00:29:13 Uh, well, I mean, in some cases, if you think about the, the low speed shuttles that capability exists today, um, they're just not cleared to operate on the roadways. And frankly, there's not a large number of those vehicles being manufactured and across the globe today, that situation is going to fundamentally change. I mean, for example, easy mile has a, as a capability where you could, you could summon the vehicle, uh, and it will come to where you are. But those again are sort of operated in and, and controlled environments campuses, uh, industrial parks and things like that. Um, so that, and, and as, as the other vehicles get more sophisticated, and I don't know if you've seen the demos of the Ford, uh, self-driving vehicle, the Tara's delivering the Domino's pizza, but that kind of stuff's already happening. Um, now it's not moving people yet, but it's just a matter of time.
Speaker 0 00:30:11 And how do they deal with like security issues or hacking because they do have a link to the internet.
Speaker 1 00:30:19 Yeah. So the great question, and that's, that's sort of the conundrum of the era, and that's the kind of under mobile, all the, all the, all the vertical systems that we're attaching to the internet, whether it's health care systems or health devices, or, you know, solar panels or whatever it may be. I mean, as soon as you connect them up to the critical infrastructure there, you know, they become vulnerable. And there are a lot of great minds that are out there working on the issue of cybersecurity, particularly in the vehicle space. And the auto Alliance has got a, they started something and now a lot of the other players go a lot of makers and others, and even the industry itself is funding something, they call, um, the, uh, the auto, uh, the Ottawa ISAC, um, which, uh, is a part of the department of Homeland security's, um, critical infrastructure protection organization.
Speaker 1 00:31:14 And there are several verticals, like there's an ice ax. It's I fact stands for information sharing and analysis center. Um, and this is the automotive AIESEC, and there's one for, uh, there's one for the banking community. There's one for, for, uh, uh, for retail. Uh, and they're all part of the DHS, uh, focus in there. Their focus is how do you, how do you detect and respond? And, and in some cases even prevent, uh, hacking from taking place. So there are a lot of great minds that are at work, coming up with strategies to secure our infrastructure and secure the, the, I call them the ones and zeros, uh, the data that are, that are moving between the vehicles, even in, you know, in the, within the vehicle. Uh, and, and, and the data in transit, which is, you know, getting, getting connected over the internet, uh, or, uh, in typically wirelessly and, and, and they've even data at rest.
Speaker 1 00:32:12 I mean, how do you protect that? And that's something that, uh, that a lot of folks are, are, are very cognizant of, and it's no, it's, it's very analogous to the lock in your house, right? I mean, and, and the, and the detection that you want. And as, as we all know, as we've watched the evolution of, uh, of, of safety, if you will, um, we've seen how they become more sophisticated as threats have evolved, and the same thing's going on here with the internet and protecting internet and ensuring, um, protection of our critical infrastructure, including motor vehicles.
Speaker 0 00:32:45 We need to take just a short station break to let everyone know you're tuned to cafe 90.3, FM Minneapolis 1 0 6 0.7, FM St. Paul
[email protected]. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. This is disability and progress. I'm Charlene dolls. My research assistant. We are speaking with Paul Brewbaker, Paul's the president of the Alliance for transportation innovation, sorry,
Speaker 1 00:33:12 That's a mouthful. I know it's a mouthful. We call it, we call ourselves ATI 21.
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Speaker 3 00:34:25 K fei.org.
Speaker 0 00:34:27 We are listening to the self-driving cars version that we did have a program, a handful of years back. And that is my goal in the, the, uh, fall to send my research team Charlene back to get some more self-driving car information, because
Speaker 3 00:34:45 Lions for transportation or elevation
Speaker 0 00:34:47 That's right. So that's really important. I think that, you know, now that we're out of the hopeful wood woods of diseases, um, that's going to be are, are one of the things I hope to, to bring to you. Meanwhile, you can pledge to help keep this on the air 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3 0 or
Speaker 3 00:35:10 Hey, FAI or Jean. We're
Speaker 0 00:35:12 Going to listen to as much more of it as we can, and we will be back to catch you at the end. So speaking of, you know, people working together, actually, Washington has not really been on the ball when it comes to making legislation and things like that about this. And I know handfuls of states have started making their own. So can you speak to this about how they're working with Washington and what Washington is doing and, and how the states differ or what will happen here?
Speaker 1 00:35:45 Yeah. So let me take a little bit of issue with that, because I think in this era of, of, of partisan divide and, and, and what can be politely described this unprecedented hostility in the political realm, um, this is one area where the house and Senate Republicans and Democrats have come together, uh, is on autonomous vehicle policy. And, and just, let me give you a real quick update of what's happening, um, in, in, in Washington and this area. So the house passed a piece of legislation. Uh, I want to say back in August, uh, that it was their version of, of the AAV bill and their, what they're trying to do is, is clear the, um, uh, enabled the us department of transportation, uh, to have a path toward approving vehicles for testing. Um, and that's something they called the self-drive act. Uh, and then the Senate, um, uh, has not passed the legislation yet, but, uh, but, um, they voted it out of committee and by the way, the, um, both committees, uh, that were responsible for getting the legislation at the house and the Senate committee, um, uh, passed it unanimously.
Speaker 1 00:36:59 So, so Kansas are, this is going to go to the Senate floor, it's going to get passed and there'll be a competence committee name. Uh, and then they will negotiate the differences between the house bill and a Senate bill, but the gist of what's happening, uh, in both the house and the Senate is they they're signaling to the us department transportation that, Hey, uh, we support your granting exceptions. So the federal motor vehicle safety standard, so that the design features that are mandated in that standard things like steering wheels, brake pedals, all the things to presuppose a driver. Uh, and I think there were like something like 286 reference individual references, the motor federal motor vehicle safety standards to a driver, um, will a, can be, you can gain exemptions to that. So they're clearing the path. The one thing that was a big issue was exactly what you were saying is all the states moving out, uh, and acting their own legislation around autonomous vehicles.
Speaker 1 00:37:55 We had this patchwork of state law state laws, um, 23 that had passed, and there were more on the docket that were mandating certain design features within the VA within autonomous vehicles, which both the house and the Senate legislation essentially say that the federal there's a level of federal preemption so that the states could go ahead and still regulate the licensing, the registration of the vehicles, the inspections, but when it came to manufacturing design features, that was the exclusive purview of the feds. And that's since been that's, that's where we are right now. And they're neither the house or nor the Senate had become law yet. Um, but I fully expect that those will, um, will, will pass. Uh, the Senate bill will pass. The Senate will go to conference, we'll come up with a compromise bill. And by the way, there's not a big difference between the two pieces of legislation.
Speaker 1 00:38:52 So I think there, uh, there'll be able to quickly reconcile their differences and then a vote on it and get it on the president's desk who I would expect would sign it. We, we belong to an organization called the coalition for future mobility. Uh, we were a founding member with a number of other organizations, including, you know, the auto lines and global automakers, but more lift. And, you know, I kissed American folks, but more importantly, the disability communities represented in the coalition for future mobility. You've got the American council for the blind, you've got, um, uh, the national Federation of the blind. You've got, I'm trying to think, uh, you've got the American network of community options and resources, uh, just a number of, of, of related organizations, including 60 plus, uh, which is, uh, a seniors organization. So, you know, there, there were folks who were looking at the social benefits of this, um, pretty heavily in, and certainly the accessibility issue and the independence issues related with full automation that, that, uh, the promise to give people more, more personal freedom or economic freedom. And we're very excited about that.
Speaker 0 00:40:02 You know, every article you read somewhere, the writer puts in, but there's going to be a huge job loss, what they don't realize, blah, blah, blah, that, that, you know, with these autonomous vehicles or self-driving vehicles, people don't need to drive them. So how is that being looked at?
Speaker 1 00:40:23 Yeah. So I'm glad you asked that question. Uh, I think there's a lot of misinformation out there and I, I really gotta hand it to Senator Collins and read, uh, Senator Reed from Rhode Island. Senator Collins is from Maine who asked the general or the government accountability office to undertake a study on job loss. Um, uh, and what the, what the, not job loss, but really what the, what the economic implications of increased autonomy will be because there's a lot of fear out there and it's not, I don't think the, the impact on the labor market will probably not be unlike the, the, the impact that, that, uh, the, uh, you know, the, the horseless carriage had or the Ford model T hat on, on, on society. I think I see, I think certain jobs will, will be disrupted while others will, um, uh, will, you know, continue to go on.
Speaker 1 00:41:17 Meanwhile, other jobs are simply going to change. Like, for example, I, for example, I do not see moving drivers, you know, uh, tractor, trailer operators out of the driving tasks. I see that I see their work changing because if you're sitting on a trailer that has, you know, three or 5 million or whatever, the number is millions of dollars worth of goods in it, you're not going to just turn that over to automation and let anybody, you know, sort of mess with this rolling platform. I think you're still going to have people who will attend it in some ways. It could be, it could be safer because you're going to see, uh, you know, hours of service becomes less of an issue. Uh, the sleep apnea issue becomes less of an issue and heck you get, I mean, you can even have people with certain physical disabilities, be able to be common attendant in that, in, in that sort of an environment.
Speaker 1 00:42:09 And then you've got, um, you've got other issues. Like, for example, you're talking to the father of a 17 year old, you know, son on the autism spectrum. Um, he's never going to drive a car, but he can operate an app, but with his, his level of, you know, where he is on the spectrum, he would not get into a vehicle that showed up by itself. If there wasn't an attendant available, I don't think I, I don't see him getting into it. And likewise, when you're talking about like senior citizens who are, are challenged, uh, you know, from a mobility perspective who, uh, someone, uh, an autonomous vehicle, there should probably be an attendant there, particularly if they're going to the grocery store, if they need help, uh, you know, just sort of getting settled in the vehicle. There's probably going to be a, uh, I don't, I don't see a role for the tenant completely going away.
Speaker 1 00:42:58 I just don't. I think, I think the nature of the job will change. So I think a lot of the fear is just fear of the unknown. I think, I think we tend to fear what we don't understand or what we can't clearly envision. Um, and I think a lot of organizations are trying to paint the picture ourselves included of what the autonomous future will look like. And I think it's, I think it's pretty rosy. I think the fact that, um, and this is a deity figure, the fact that you've got, uh, um, I think the number that the secretary put out was 2 million people with physical disabilities who lack convenient, accessible, affordable options for transportation are kind of shut out of the employment market. And I know people, you know, who are, who are economically disadvantaged, who live in areas that are underserved by public transit, who have a two hour commute to, uh, you know, workspace or workplace that's 15 miles away we can do better is my only point. And I think a lot of the, a lot of the, a lot of the fears and trepidation about what the future might look like are unfounded, but we don't know yet until we get there.
Speaker 0 00:44:10 So I think there are, you know, we talk about rented vehicles or shared vehicles. I think there are going to be people who want to own their own vehicles. I mean, and, and that I come at this as, uh, a perspective of, you know, with people with disabilities that who've had to share for so long and have had two hour wait that you've talked about. Um, I think that I would want my own vehicle. So how does that play into the driver's license and is that even attainable tech, think about having your own vehicle.
Speaker 1 00:44:49 Yeah. Um, you know, it's interesting too, that the Senate bill actually speaks to that where they talk about, um, the fact that, uh, you know, if you're in a, in a highly automated or, or, or have a vehicle with full automation, um, that, you know, you can't deny a driver's license that somebody with a physical disability. And I thought that was pretty innovative. Um, uh, the, uh, so I, I see where you're coming from on this, and I think, you know, you may be right. I mean, only the future is going to tell, but I think frankly, it's going to be an issue of economics and will people want to, I mean, these cars are not going to be cheap. Obviously these vehicles are not going to be cheap. Um, and can we wind up, uh, you know, like for example, is there a, I think they're just business models out there that we have haven't conceived of yet that are only, only limited by our imagination.
Speaker 1 00:45:44 And if you think about like, uh, even like a Zipcar where you can, you can, you can submit it to you and it will come to you. That'd be fine, but there will be people that are gonna want to personalize, um, their vehicles. And it's going to be a function of, I think, just the economics. I think if folks want to want to bear the brunt and pay for it, uh, then you know, yeah. There's certainly, I don't see anything. That's going to stop people from wanting to do that, but I think the economics are going to be so, and the convenience will be so compelling that most of the rides will be shared.
Speaker 0 00:46:18 Do don't you think it will be something like supply and demand though? I mean, I guess
Speaker 1 00:46:26 I, like I say, it's the economics that I think will drive this,
Speaker 0 00:46:30 I guess I see kind of the general public is pretty selfish, you know? Um, and all you have to do is look at, and, um, Minnesota I have to do is look at our highways. We have a lot of people who own their own cars, and yes, we do have some mass transit or look at LA people loved to drive in LA. Everyone has their own car. Trans is horrible in LA. Um, but,
Speaker 3 00:46:54 But if I could send my car home after I get to work and my wife, my husband needs to go somewhere. You only need one car instead of two.
Speaker 1 00:47:07 Yeah. I mean, I would challenge the thinking a little bit though, because I, you know, if you really think about how utterly convenient it can be and the cost-effectiveness of it, I think, I think people might change their thinking. And I think also this is generational. Um, we did a, we did a global survey on what they call mobility as a, and it's basically transportation on demand, uh, using whatever mode makes the most sense at any given time and the, the fins, believe it or not have done a lot of pioneering work in this space. Um, and, and, uh, the acceptance of that is completely generational. If you look at the data, the data suggests that that millennials and, and, and, and people coming up or are totally fine, the digital natives, if you will, uh, in most areas now there is a rural, urban issue, a little tweak in the numbers relative to, you know, whether they're on an urban area or a rural area, but the data certainly suggests that, um, uh, that, uh, uh, that we're, we're breaking this down along generational lines and people admire, I mean, we love to drive cars that represented, you know, freedom and, you know, America, right.
Speaker 1 00:48:23 So control,
Speaker 2 00:48:26 But here's what I'll tell
Speaker 1 00:48:27 People that told me, look, I love to drive. I, I, you know, people still like to ride horses too, and we just, we let them do that, but we let them do it. And, you know, it went in areas that are designated for it. And I suspect that there will probably be gobs of roads and courses for people who really want to drive the old fashion, you know, internal combustion engine vehicles, or who want to raise electric vehicles or whatever they want to do and get behind the wheel and, you know, take their life into their own hands. It's their, their prerogative.
Speaker 0 00:48:55 I just wonder about, you know, the whole idea of when you have a cop cab come for you, and if it's just gotten done dropping people off from a party, how do you know somebody didn't make a total mess out of the cab? And when it shows up, you're like, we've got that
Speaker 1 00:49:12 Issue now with Uber and Lyft and, and, and, you know, the, the ride sharing, uh, companies. And, and by the way, you've got also got the option there. If you want a pool or you want to ride by yourself. So I think, I think we're kind of, uh, you know, there's just some real interesting innovation and some use models. You know, if you wanna, if you wanna pull your plate, pay less, if you want to, if you want to ride by yourself, you're going to pay more. And I just think that's the kind of, um, those are the kinds of economic decisions that people are, frankly, going to have the options. And I think, I think more options are better. So, um, do your point, like if you, you still, like, if you're absolutely committed to owning a motor, a, you know, a vehicle, uh, and I call them motor vehicles, even if they're electric, because they've got electric motors in them, you're, you're committed to owning a motor vehicle.
Speaker 1 00:50:02 You know, you're committed to owning a motor vehicle and you're just going to have to bear the brunt of it. And I think about the economics of it. And I think about like Singapore, where they love you a hundred percent tax on the vehicle, you know, you still have people who are buying them and he saw people who want to drive him, uh, even though the economics make no sense. So, uh, I think you're gonna, you're going to wind up with, you know, varying levels of, of luxury and these things too. And you may to, uh, or use a service that has varying levels of, of luxury in it, based on the economics.
Speaker 0 00:50:34 Well, I'm okay with self-driving. I just don't know if I want to share. Yeah. It was such a great show. That was a self-driving cars, and that was a really fun show to do Charlene. Um,
Speaker 3 00:50:49 Yes, it was. And there's more to come and we, we will be doing another show pretty soon. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:50:55 And, and it was really educational. I think, you know, it there's so much that has happened. I think through the COVID time there, I said it, I said it Almar COVID, um, and, and everything that they were still not, it's not like they didn't come to, they didn't come to a complete standstill, you know, so things were still going on and they still are now. Certainly. And I look forward to hearing the updates when we get to bring them to you. Um, sometime the spa, meantime, meantime, meanwhile, we'd like you to bring us some pledges. Um, you can go to cafe.org, a safe, secure website, and pledged till your heart's content and support disability and progress with Charlene and I, and all these programs that we bring you, we really enjoy bring them. I've really had a lot of fun, even though we were not in live in the studio, we were live, but not in the studio. It was fun to do, still be able to do all this. And we wouldn't be able to do all that and be able to do it from home. Like we do, if we didn't have the equipment and the ability to do that with a station like this. And we have that because of you. So cafe.org, right?
Speaker 3 00:52:15 Yeah. Camping not go RG.
Speaker 0 00:52:18 And I'm, I mean, I, I think to Charlene, you, you, you've kind of enjoyed being able to stay home and, and do the show from there.
Speaker 3 00:52:31 Well, yeah, it's a little easier cause the self-driving cars are <inaudible>. So
Speaker 0 00:52:39 Anyway, one last bit, um, please go to cafe.org, give what you can afford. And, um, if you make it up to the $120, certainly ask for that herb grinder because it looks cool. So thank you very much for listening everyone. And thank you Charlene for coming on and we will be back next week. Okay. Disrespect, disability, and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of cafe or it's boards of directors. If you want to be a part of my email list, you may email us at disability and progress at Sam, jasmine.com. Thanks so much for listening. My name is Sam Elmer helped me, Charlene dolls, my research team. This is Kathy I 90.3 FM Minneapolis K fei.org is where you can pledge. And I guess that's, that's what I've got for you. We were listening to the version of self-driving cars that we did about 2017. Fresh fruit is up next. Thanks so much for listening.
