Speaker 1 00:01:01 Hello, thank you for joining disability and progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. Thanks so much for tuning in. Thank you for my engineer, shower, Annie Harvey and Charlene dolls. My research team. Hello, Charlene. Good evening everyone. Uh, today we are speaking with Raul <inaudible> and rebel is speaking with us about nag due or a national association of guide dog users. Hello? Hello, Sam. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 00:01:37 It's wonderful to be here.
Speaker 1 00:01:39 Do not hold anything that I say on this program against me. So anyway, um, can you just start out by giving us a little bit of history about how nag do got it starts
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Well and nag new, which is the acronym for the national association of guide dog users is one of the many divisions of the national Federation of the blind. And so the national Federation of the blind itself began in 1940. And so it's been around for quite a while and has grown a lot since fast forward to about the mid eighties or so. A group of guide dog users decided to get together, uh, one of the national conventions. And at first it was just a guide dog user committee and eventually evolved into the division. And so the purpose of a division in the national Federation of the blind is to still follow the general scope of what the national Federation of the blind stands for with the general philosophy, following the constitution, the rules, the code of conduct, et cetera. However, it is specific for dialogue users and the advocacy and the education and the support efforts are geared toward people who are guide dog users, people who are interested in becoming guide dog users or every extreme in-between and a few other areas that may or may not be directly related to guide dog users.
Speaker 1 00:03:15 I have brought up, um, national Federation of the blind. You should probably tell who they are.
Speaker 2 00:03:23 All right. So the national Federation of the blind, as I mentioned, is an organization that was born in 1940. One of the primary purposes of the national Federation of the blind or NFB is a civil rights. Uh, it's an as a civil rights group that helps to ensure that white people are treated fairly. People are treated as first-class citizens and that we can live normal lives. And just because we are blind people that we don't have to necessarily be treated any differently, and we can still hold a job, be parents, be lawyers, be couch potatoes, be radio DJs, basically anything that you want. And that blindness should be really thought of as a characteristic of yourself. And with proper training, you can be just as independent and as productive member of society as possible.
Speaker 1 00:04:21 So now that you've done all that, I want some history on you and who are you anyway, and how you got involved with negative? All right.
Speaker 2 00:04:31 Well, as my wife would like to say is I like to talk about myself. And sometimes she has to put the brakes on that. So I am in my mid forties and I am blind. I'm completely blind. And throughout the interview here, as I say, the word blind, I am really encompassing every aspect of less than perfect vision, whether it's barely legally blind or completely with no vision. So I'm not going to spend five minutes talking about every aspect of low vision, some vision, et cetera. Right? So in any case, I was always a legally blind person ever since I was born, but I had some usable vision. And in the late eighties, early nineties, I started losing that vision. And so I was in high school. I was a 14 year old kid going blind, and I had issues of image and self-worth to deal with that.
Speaker 2 00:05:25 Every kid has to go through in high school and still on top of that, here I am losing my vision. And so the thought of using a cane, the thought of having to read braille, large print, all the other stuff was just not cool because kids that have to do that, never get girlfriends was my thing. The only thing that was important to me then, oh, that was it. And, um, so eventually though, through, through some careful mentoring and even through one of my good friends who said, Hey, would you like a girl to notice a guy who walks confident and doesn't trip over stuff? Or would you like a girl to laugh at the guy who's stumbling over steps that he can't see because he's not using a cane. And I thought maybe there is something to this cane thing. So when I was leaving high school, I met this older lady who I thought was just this crotchety old lady.
Speaker 2 00:06:18 She was talking about how I had to go to this one school for blind people and wear blindfolds. And we were going to go rock climbing. And I'm thinking you are out of your mind lady. There's no way that I'm going to be a rock climbing when I can't even see what the heck I'm doing later. I found out that this lady, her name is Diane. McGeorge is one of the leaders of the national Federation of the blind. And she's the one who started the Colorado center for the blind, which is one of the three NFE schools in the country. And consequently, I never did go to the school. I, I, uh, thumb my nose at the NFL. I'm like you guys, you know, a bunch of long white cane, radical blind people that only want blind people to wear blindfolds and sleep shades and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Even if you don't have any vision, it's a waste of time. I hate rock climbing, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, so I never did go to that. And so I kind of took a break from the NFV for a bit, and I wasn't even really a member, but about a year or two later, I decided to get a guide dog. And at the time when I got a guide dog, it was because somebody said, it's going to improve my independence and I'm going to be a better traveler. And I'm thinking, well, gee, I thought I already traveled really well with my cane. That I'm mostly not embarrassed about anymore. And now I'm wanting to get a dog. And so the first time I got a guide dog, it was for that reason, I wanted to become a better traveler. And then someone said, well, you know, women like guys with dogs, you know, you'll get more people talking to you.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 I'm thinking, okay, I'm 18, 19 years old, let's get this dog. And so I got my first guide dog looking back on it. Now I probably should have waited another couple of years. So I matured a little more by then, uh, as the years passed and I matured a little bit, I'd be came a little more friendly toward the NFV and eventually became part of the student division in Colorado, which in case I haven't mentioned, that's where I'm from, it's Colorado. So all this happened in Colorado. And so I got involved with the organization and as it turned out, the philosophy that the NFE has kind of really fell in, in line with my philosophy. So even, even when I was a guide dog user, I always had a folding cane with me because even though I knew that my dog was a great guide and a great mobility tool, I also knew that he might get sick or he might, you know, something may happen or might not give me the information I need.
Speaker 2 00:08:43 So I just had a cane around with me. And so people would be like, well, if you have your dog, why do you have a cane? And so I'd have to explain that and all this other stuff. And, um, so fast forward, you know, I, I stayed involved with the national Federation of the blind and at the time all throughout the nineties, it was part of the student division. And, you know, did a little bit of stuff with chapters and that kind of stuff, moved to Kansas and early 2000 worked for sprint for a few years. Uh, I used to swear up and down that I'd never live in Kansas. Nobody in their right mind would ever look for cannabis. But when sprint offered me a $60,000 job a year, I'm like, oh, I'll do that. I'll work anywhere for that money. You know? So, uh, I live in Kansas and, uh, and, um, fast forward to the all throughout the two thousands, I, I did network engineering for sprint.
Speaker 2 00:09:35 I did my own network contracting as an it person fixing people's computers, et cetera. In late 2007, I was hired on by a company called GW micro in Indiana. They were the former screen reader makers of the screenreader window eyes. That was a huge competitor to John's at the time. So I worked for them for a few years. Eventually decided that that tech support really wasn't my thing. And instead I wanted to teach people why certain things work or don't work so that they don't have to call tech support. Don't get me wrong. I loved my job security, but I would also get frustrated when people would call. And they'd say, you know, I have this printer, how do I print? And I had to tell them, I'm sorry, but that's not a windows problem. How back with a window eyes problem? And then I feel bad because, well, I ought to teach them how to print, because that way they wouldn't be frustrated no matter what screen reader they're using.
Speaker 2 00:10:33 So that, um, when I left the company, uh, GW micro, that was in 2011. I tried to get work in Indiana. It didn't work very well because, you know, there was kind of a small boys town club and, you know, everybody was already settled in, have their own clients. And you know, here I am person with no job and trying to get up and running, didn't work out. Then a friend of mine said, well, you know, they're looking for trainers in Houston. If you really want to be a trainer, you need to move to Houston, Texas. And I'm thinking, okay, I've lived in Colorado. I've lived in Kansas. I've lived in Vienna. Why would I want to go to Texas where the weather is three times hotter, a lot more humidity. There's just no way. And I said, well, you can make a lot of money and you can get a lot of contracts.
Speaker 2 00:11:16 I'm thinking, okay, money. Alright, good new career. Good. I needed to reboot my life. Good. So let's do it. So I've been here in Texas since late 2012. And it's a good thing I did because that's where I met my current wife. And that turned out really well. She, she picked me and I'm glad for that. And the training business grew, I became involved with the NFB of Texas, very involved with the bell side, which is where we teach children all about braille. We mentor younger, blind adults into showing them that they can be just as goofy and normal as I am. And, um, meanwhile, um, I had retired my guide dog, you know, years back, I took a break from guide dogs. And then finally around 2015, I decided, you know, I think I'm ready for a guide dog again. And so I got the guide dog for different reasons.
Speaker 2 00:12:12 It wasn't because I needed to be empowered as a traveler. I didn't get it. I certainly didn't get it for the Uber denials. I'll tell you that. Um, you know, I got it because it's, as a friend of mine recently showed me, it's the icing on the cake, independence travel with a cane is, is the cake. And then you'd get a guide dog. You add icing to it. In other words, you enhance your travels. And until he mentioned that, you know, he put those words that way. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I just knew that I liked having a guide dog. So I get a guide dog and, you know, being involved with the NFV of Texas, apparently it wasn't enough. So I started seeing areas that nagged who needed some, some help with and improvement on and stuff like that. So I got involved with that.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 I was one of the first folks, my wife and I were actually to start the Texas association of guide dog users. It doesn't sound as cool as an ag. Do you know, you have to say Texas ag newer six ag do. And that's the word involved with that? And, um, so with, on the national level, I, um, got to know, you know, a lot of the board members and got to, uh, be instrumental in some of the new changes that were happening. And then eventually when the, when the prior president said he was going to be stepping down and, you know, would I be interested in continuing on? I said, sure, if I get nominated and voted in, I'll be happy to take over. I think I can do this. So last year, when he stepped down at our national convention, which was virtual, he stepped down and I got nominated to be president. And that is how I was elected as president of the national association. I guide on users. Excellent.
Speaker 1 00:13:47 As a president, what are your duties?
Speaker 2 00:13:52 Well, one thing that I can tell you is, as a president, it doesn't mean that I get to have my say with everything. I've never believed that I got into this position, not believing that. And I still feel that it's true. I believe that a president and the president's board are a team, which is one of the reasons why it's important to have an odd number of people, because this way you never have a tie vote, 50 50, when you have to vote on things. I think that the, one of the duties of a president is he ends up becoming essentially the face of nag new or the face of the organization that he or she is the president of. And so when people think now do eventually, hopefully they'll think of me and hopefully it'll be in a positive way. So I think that image goes along with it in terms of duties.
Speaker 2 00:14:45 I think that a president its duties are to present ideas to the board, to those questions. And to be honest, the president ends up having to take the fall for a lot of stuff, whether it's it's their fault or not. If, if a board member or even a member who's not on the board does something and it reflects on nag you itself. They're going to look at the president and say, this is your fault. If something good happens, Hey, thanks for making it happen. And it may be that I had absolutely nothing to happen, but that's really, I think one of the biggest things that people need to understand as a president of anything is that when good or bad things happen, they're going to look to you for it because you are the go-to person for that. It doesn't matter how policies are come to
Speaker 1 00:15:33 Role. I'm wondering how many members does nag do currently have,
Speaker 2 00:15:39 You know, I wish I could give you an exact number. Um, I really should have that, but I don't. What I can tell you is we have members that register themselves as national division members. So if you live in a state, for example, like Minnesota, that does not have a guide dog user division, then if you want to be a member of nag, do you might register at the national level with us? And so I would say if I had to guess, we probably have at least 500 members throughout the country,
Speaker 1 00:16:11 I'm guessing, and please don't quote any money amounts, but I'm guessing that you pay a fee to join nag too,
Speaker 2 00:16:19 Correct? Yep. There, there are membership fees and
Speaker 1 00:16:22 Then those membership fees also attach you with NFV if you are a member of nag, too. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:16:28 That is correct. He become a member of the national Federation of the blind. And if you were to pay your dues to a local guide dog, user affiliate division, like in Colorado, we have on in Texas, we have one when we recognize those members, so they don't have to pay twice.
Speaker 1 00:16:46 And so does nag do basically work on policies and things in regards to guide dog users,
Speaker 2 00:16:53 We work on policies. We work on advocacy education. And one of my goals, one of my visions for Naghiu to have, is to really put out there a way for folks that have informed choice when choosing an guide dog training program, there's a lot of questions that people need to ask. And a lot of things people need to be informed about when choosing in case certain things that our program does that are deal breakers, or maybe they're not in line with, with, with your belief system. And so we want people to have that. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:17:31 So I'm wondering once you become a member or if you become a member of nag, do what do you get and how do you, how do you get people involved or keep people involved?
Speaker 2 00:17:45 We have a, we have an email list that's available to everybody, whether they're nag new members or not, it's open to all. So let's say that maybe you're not a member. And you're curious to see what it's all about. We encourage folks to sign up, join, participate. And really the only thing we ask is that, you know, the standard stuff, you know, be respectful of others and, and understand that just because person a with guide dog a has a different belief system than you with your guide dog doesn't mean that you're both right or wrong. Um, so other than those things, we encourage people to really ask questions and check things out. If you decide to become a member after you pay your, um, your dues, then from us, meaning the nag new board, you receive a welcome packet, which is a document that we recently created, and it gives the contact information for everyone on the board.
Speaker 2 00:18:40 It gives information about the mailing list in case you're not already on it. It gives information about our Twitter to follow and our Facebook group for you to join, which by the way, you can also join the Facebook group, even if you're not a member. So we're not a members only email list and Facebook group or anything like that. So it gives that information and you essentially become part of the NFP, which means that if you want to learn more about what the NFP stands for and attend to other things at the NFP has in general, whether it's specific toward dyed dog users or not, you have that advantage. And you know, other things that the NFE does like our national convention and other meetings of interests line people, they are mostly open to people who are not members, because we want people to know what we are about
Speaker 1 00:19:36 Who decides what issues you're going to work on. Is it NFB, or do you get any autonomy with that?
Speaker 2 00:19:45 It's kind of, it's sometimes can be a complicated thing. So ultimately we fall under the constitution of the national Federation of the blind. So even though we are primarily focusing on guide dog, user rights and guide dog, user education and advocacy, we still operate under the philosophy of the national Federation of the blind. Okay. So that being said, if, for example, someone comes, uh, comes up to me, approaches me and says, you know, I went to my dentist office and my dentist says, I can't bring my dog because it's a sterile environment. And I feel like this person discriminated against me. What do I do? So what we do, whether it's my spell for one of our board members, or even some of our lists members who know the laws better, we explain what your rights are. And we also talk about what your responsibilities are.
Speaker 2 00:20:45 It's been my experience. People tend to talk about their rights. You know, you have the right to do this, that and the other, and not a lot of attention is paid to your responsibility. And so an example might be, if I go to the dentist office, I have the right to take my guide dog with me because the ADA says that's. So, but I also have the responsibility to make sure that my dog is under control. And, and if the dog is not, they can't ask me to leave or they can ask me to remove this dog, whether it is a legitimate service animal or not, and that is not discrimination. So, so in this situation, I try to educate the person to make sure gather information, gather data. Let's say that the person truly was discriminated against. And my question for them is what would you like to do?
Speaker 2 00:21:34 How would you like to proceed? We, as a general rule from the philosophy of the NFPS, we want to empower blind people to take control of their own lives and make those decisions. We don't want to make the decisions for them because it goes down to that little word. We are the national Federation of the blind, not for the blind. And so we want, we want to try to show people that they can make their own decisions. And so we'll help guide them to say, okay, do you want to educate this person? Do you want to bring some awareness training to them too? You want folks to show up with guide dogs and say, Hey, you know, look, you know, we, we got a dog users also deserve to have her teeth cleaned and stuff like that. What would you like us to do? And so we do that now.
Speaker 2 00:22:20 Let's say we have a complicated situation where for example, uh, the department of transportation recently changed the laws so that when people are traveling with their service animals, now they have to fill out this form if the airline wants them to. So in some cases we're finding that that's presenting a huge challenge for blind people because the forms are not always accessible. So are any laws being broken, right? Um, that's something that we try to determine. So we would take on something like that to try to educate whether it is a small, uh, medical office or whether the large entity, like the document.
Speaker 1 00:23:00 How are you different than other guide dog, user groups?
Speaker 2 00:23:05 Well, you know, to be honest, I'm not sure. And I will be the first person to stay when I don't know something. Um, I can tell you everything that we stand for in terms of nag you, but I don't necessarily follow the other events. And it's not because of not curious. It's because a lot of times I'm busy enough doing my, my day job work and my advocacy work that I don't have time. So I'll hear about it through, you know, through email channels or social media or whatever. Um, other guide dog groups, uh, guide dog, user groups. Let me specify that some, some guide dog, user groups, if, if they're specifically for guide dogs and dog user rights will have a different approach in the sense that if they're part of another organization, they may have their own philosophies that they are operating under.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 So if, if another guide dog user group is part of a larger one, sort of the way mag do is part of the way part of the NFV. Um, then we differ in, in the general philosophy of how we view blindness or how we approach a problem or how we approach a situation. If, if it's an another user group, for example, maybe an advocacy group that's specifically dealing with service animals, then the differences become a little easier to answer because we primarily know blindness that's our field of expertise, quote unquote, because we live it ourselves. Um, but if someone maybe belongs to a group that has a service animal, maybe if you're a diabetic or, um, you know, if you have seizures or whatever, and you need to learn how to, how to handle advocacy regarding those areas, then we are going to be different in the sense that we're not going to know quite as much as groups that, that are specific for that. You
Speaker 1 00:25:00 Know, I will say this, like in the end, it's all the same, I guess for me, I feel that I wish that, um, groups would work more closely together. There are obviously different philosophies, but in the end, the strength is in the numbers. And we all want the same things. Basically we want our rights and have the ability to have our dogs accepted, where they are legally able to be accepted and no pushback like that. And we don't, you know, those kinds of things. So I think, uh, I hope someday in the future that, um, these groups will more closely affiliate with each other and work together.
Speaker 2 00:25:42 I could not agree with you more. And what I can say is I have had since becoming president a few conversations with leaders of other groups and other guide dog, user groups, and at least from what I can tell those communications have been positive and, and despite having a different philosophy and a different approach to coming at it, I think we all agree on what you just said. We ultimately want to have, we want to be recognized as, uh, you know, people who have the right, just like everybody else, whether it's a cane or a guide dog or wheelchair or whatever, to go wherever, you know, wherever we, we want to go,
Speaker 1 00:26:22 I'd like to talk a little bit about your app. Um, I know the app's been out for a little while, but it is something I think a lot of people don't know about. And so I've wanted to know, um, a couple of things, first of all, is it free and what platforms does it work on?
Speaker 2 00:26:45 Well, thank you for asking and yes, we are proud to say that we have a nag new app. And as of right now, the app is only available in the app store for iPhones. Do we, I know this hurts me to say that considering
Speaker 1 00:27:01 On Android, Android,
Speaker 2 00:27:05 Well, there's a little history there. So it did come out for Android initially, but we had to, we had to go through a rebuild of the app and in the process, we have to rebuild it from the ground up on the Google play store platform, essentially. So that's in progress, so it was available and now it's not, but it is coming back. So it's not, um, it's not like it's an, it's not a reality, so it will happen. It's just not available today. So the app is free and the app will download. Uh, well, first off the purpose of the app is to give guide dog users a list of all of the laws that pertain to die dogs while in service animals, really in general, all over the country. Not only does it have the Americans with disabilities act and the fair housing act listed there, but it also has quick fact sheets, like what to do concerning a hotel concerning a restaurant concerning, you know, very specific situations. And then it has a list of the state by state, um, you know, laws in terms of where it's a felony, where it's, you know, a criminal, you know, whatever, um, you know, for any sort of discrimination.
Speaker 1 00:28:24 I want to stop you there because I want to ask why is it always this white? Is it questions? Why is it that all states don't have the same laws pertaining to service animals?
Speaker 2 00:28:38 All I can say is three words, welcome to America. We have the federal laws, and then we have the various different state laws that have been created. And some of these laws were created before the federal law went into play, and I'm not a lawyer. So I can't tell you exactly how that works, but there, in my mind, the federal law should supersede any sort of state laws. And I think that some judges, when it comes to that in court will see that. And they'll say, Hey, you know what? Federal law says this. So, you know, who cares what the state law says? So I believe it has something to do with,
Speaker 1 00:29:14 And I want to ask you about this. What happens like there are, I think, I think, I feel like it's that it's more of a law for like everyone knows there's supposed to be Alicia law, especially in the city and in the suburbs, rural, rural areas get a little bit tricky. Um, but having said that, does it tell you what to do if you, your dogs gets hurt because of another person's that dog,
Speaker 2 00:29:47 Not in so many words, like it doesn't give you a step by step, but it gives you the, you know, for example, in Texas. Um, and I can, I can sorta tell you that because I've looked at it and because I live here, so I kind of had an interest, right? And so the law is essentially, um, where if someone else's dog attacks you or text your dog, you can prosecute. And it is a criminal charge that the person, um, can, you can file a criminal charge against that person, uh, because of the way the laws are set up. And so by looking at those laws in there from the app, I was able to deduce that and also been able to find, as I look at other states that not all states have that same, you know, there's a civil laws, there's criminal laws. And so there there's different ones. And, um, you know, so at least it gives you a guide as to what your rights are in terms of how you want to pursue a situation that happens.
Speaker 1 00:30:46 I'd like to talk also about, um, something that's supposed to be on the app and I haven't tried it. So I don't know. It's something that if you feel you're being discriminated against that you can call a special advocate. Um, if you're having a discrimination issue pertaining to your guide dog and, um, somewhere out in the public, is this correct?
Speaker 2 00:31:12 It used to be correct. And that goes back to how we are in the process of rebuilding the app. And so there are some outdated information there, so it's not there yet. So it's a hotline that nag you had for a while and was operating and currently that's offline because of this rebuild. Yes. Yes we do. And so I,
Speaker 1 00:31:37 What, when, when you did have this, how long has it been gone? Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 00:31:43 It's been gone for about a year
Speaker 1 00:31:45 And what happened that made it disappear. Is it just logistics about who does it or
Speaker 2 00:31:53 What happened? It's logistics, logistics, and change of personnel. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:31:59 Um, when you did have it, I'm curious about how that worked. So was it specialized trained people that knew the law and et cetera, um, in regards to the advocating part, or how did that work?
Speaker 2 00:32:14 The way it worked is it was a group of a small group of volunteers who, who knew the law, who, you know, they weren't lawyers, you know, so, you know, not nothing, nothing at that caliber, um, not lawyers, but people who are dedicated guide dog users, volunteering to be able to answer questions with that, disclaimer, that the advice given, um, is not legal advice, but more of general advocacy to say, you know, Hey, what do I do? What do I tell them? You know, if this happens, um, to kind of give that kind of guidance in terms of, you know, where do you do, what do you do next? Okay.
Speaker 1 00:32:50 Do you foresee this coming back? Cause I would think it would be very necessary.
Speaker 2 00:32:56 Yes we are. As part of our rebuilding efforts to rebuild this app, we're going to add new content to it. Not only are we going to fix the things that need fixing, but we are going to add some of the, you know, the up, we're going to add rather the updated laws that some of them have been updated since the laws that are in the app now have changed slightly. Um, one of the things that, that is a unique feature of the app is that, and this is both a good and bad thing, depending on your viewpoint is that the app is not a real time web browser to check information against a live database. In other words, when you get this app, it will download all the information to your device so that it can work. Even if you're in a, in an area that does not have a live phone signal, maybe you're in an area with little cell phone service or no cell phone service.
Speaker 2 00:33:53 We want to be able to make sure that you have access to the app. The trade-off is that when there is a new feature to add to the app or new laws to build into, um, you know, because there's been some updated laws or want to add features, we have to essentially push out a whole new version of the app rather than just update it in the back end. And it just magically works. So yeah, so there's trade offs to it. And right now that's the direction that we've gone with it to just update everything statically. So
Speaker 1 00:34:23 What are we looking at that update coming out?
Speaker 2 00:34:27 I wish I had a tamp timeframe, but I don't. We have, what I can say is that we have hired a new developer to do this, and that's part of the whole rebuilding process. And so that happened earlier, um, earlier this year, I want to say maybe April or may. And so we are in the process of getting that. So if I, you know, once I have more information, I'm, you know, we're sure going to be able to put that up on our website and spread it, spread the news everywhere that we can in order to get that awareness out there. So
Speaker 1 00:34:59 I want to stay on the advocation piece a little bit from the app because I presume that you'll have it come when you do have it come back, it will be similar. Um, and the idea that you have somebody who's going to advocate for you, let's say you get a, you go into a restaurant. I think that's, I've rarely have had this happen personally, but I know people who've told me, they have you go into a restaurant and they say, I'm sorry that dog can't come in here. You do your little spiel in your explanation that this is a service animal. And, you know, according to the ADA are able to come in anywhere that you know, is, is pretty public. Um, and they say, Nope, sorry. Nope. I don't think it's service animal. You can't come in here and you go to advocate. How does that advocate on the phone help you get into that restaurant? Or do they, or do they just talk to the person? How did that work?
Speaker 2 00:35:58 I think it depends on the situation. I can tell you what I would do if I was answering the hotline. And someone says to me that this situation is happening, I would ask to speak with the, the restaurant manager or owner and you know, or the person in charge of that shift, or however the hierarchy is right. Cause we don't know if it's a chain or a small business or, you know, whatever. And I, you know, I would ask him, you know, I try to take the approach of not putting a person on the defensive. So I would say, ask the person, can you tell me, you know, can you explain to me why this person can't, you know, can't give you a business, you know, explain it to me. And I let them tell me why they feel that this person can't. And sometimes even by opening it that way, rather than coming at them to say, Hey, you need to let this person in your restaurant because this is their right, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 00:36:58 So I kind of take a more passive approach and let them tell me based on what they answer or sometimes that can help solve the issue. Because a lot of times you can figure out what a person is saying by what they're not saying. And this has happened to me before, not through the hotline, but it has happened where, uh, somebody called me to say, Hey, I'm having this issue with this restaurant. And it was a restaurant. The owner was, you know, says no dogs, you know? And so when I had this conversation with the owner through that conversation, that only took three minutes. I found out that there were a lot of people who are going into this restaurant with their pets, passing them off as guide dogs or service dogs of some kind. And then the animal would misbehave eating off the table, have accidents, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:37:46 So it turned them off to dogs period. And I, and I emphasize with them. I said, I understand, you know, if I was running a restaurant, I would be frustrated too. I said, but you know what? A lot Mo most of the, the, the bit with, with a legitimate service dog is the amount of training. And I said, not the key word is these dogs are trained to perform a service. I said, in a lot of that training is going to include behavior. And how do you act in a social situation? And I said, it is that person's dog they're acting up. Are they all over the place? Are they begging for food? Are they, this, you need to, you should probably look at the dog's behavior. And even a lot of times based on the dog behavior, that will be enough for you to be able to tell if it's a legitimate service animal or not a person's pet is going to be stressed out.
Speaker 2 00:38:37 And w and what do animals do when they're stressed out? They act up, they have accidents, they bark, they bite, they scratch. And that's just, you know, animal psychology, 1 0 1. And so a lot of times by simple educating that way based on a phone call where I asked them to tell me what their problem is, and in a non-combative way, that can really help. And that is a form of advocating. And so my first answer is not to go in guns blazing. My first answer is not to sit there and say, well, I'm calling the cops, or I'm going to do you, none of that stuff. You know, um, if, if it comes to that, you know, um, I'm not, I'm not close to the idea. And, um, in my personal case, when a Lyft driver, um, you know, they discriminate against my, my wife and I with, with a guide dog, we did call the police. And, you know, so, so sometimes you, you do do that and that wasn't Minnesota, by the way, it's gonna happen everywhere. You know? So I don't
Speaker 1 00:39:40 Use them because of that. And Rola, I want to ask you, this is a controversial thing. So I'm just going to dive right in. I am actually very much for, um, I've I guess I feel like in order to get people, to make sure that they give us access and to have to cut out some of this riffraff that keeps interfering with bringing in their pets and fake, whatever we, more information is good. And so, to me, this has been a big, controversial thing. I, I got an ID from my school for my dog. I have no problem with showing it. I feel like number one, and, and it's not like anything can't be copied. I realized that everything can be copied, but the more things you go through, the harder it is for someone to do it, and they have to really want to do it after a while, after a while the hoops that they might jump through, get tiresome, but I don't have a problem with showing my ID or the tattoo on my dog's ear. Um, I wonder, but I, I feel like there's been pushback on that. And there's like two questions that they're allowed to ask, which I feel like are really lame by the way, because anybody that knows, you know, could just answer those with a lie. And so what do you think is going to be something that will give us better handle on separating out the non service from the service dogs? Um, and, and what are you guys, are you guys working on anything like that?
Speaker 2 00:41:34 So the first part of your question, um, and you and you are right, it is a controversial topic. So I have, yes, yes, yes. I have both, you know, personal and official feelings about it. Right. So, um, and I'm going to share both. So as a general rule and over the history of nag too, nobody's really ever pushed for any sort of identification method or anything like that, other than making it, making folks aware of the two questions that are allowed under the Americans with disabilities act. And I can certainly see where, where, you know, people have a little know-how, you know, they'll just sidestep around that. And, and it's not even about the people who have no house who were passing these, these, uh, fake, uh, or counterfeit service animals for lack of a better term, but it's also the establishment don't know that they can ask those questions.
Speaker 2 00:42:26 So it's lack of education on both sides and, and rather lack of education on the business side. And, and then taking advantage of the situation from the, from the end user side, who's, who's going to be lying. Um, so an answer or a, or a solution, this is my own thoughts. And I don't know how well this would go in general is other countries have like a national register where people register, just like, just like for a lot of things you register as a blood donor, you register as an organ donor, you register as this, that, or the other, uh, when you're registered to vote and you register for other things. Um, there, there is a possibility that if something could be established, where on your state ID, you are registered as a service dog handler, then you know, you, you would, um, be able to show, even if it's just your state ID, nothing extra, not even an extra ID from the school, because like you said, those can be counterfeited easily.
Speaker 2 00:43:31 Um, the problem with that thought though, is, you know, ideas are great implementing and coming up with a solution that covers all the angles. That's, that's the real problem. Everybody can have good ideas all over the world, but how do we make it happen? So that it's fair for everybody. You know, one of the problems I see is you could easily get a dog from a dive dog training program, and they could certify you to say, oh yeah, this person did come to our establishment. There they're legitimate in terms of what they got. One of our dogs, we we've out for them, but what if you own or train your own dog, you know, then who's going to vouch for you.
Speaker 1 00:44:08 Well, I have my own answers to that, but, but that being said, I really liked that idea, actually. I think that's, I think, and I understand it at first. It's not going to be fair for all, but in my, I always tell people, you have to start, start somewhere. If you always say, it's not going to be fair for all, you will get anywhere. So at least pick it up and start, and then work on the, you know, problems in regards to it, um, smoothing it out. But the actual having the thing on your state ID, I do like that. And actually, um, I think owner train should have to have some kind of responsibility. I don't think they should just be able to say, Hey, I want to change. Anybody can do that. Anyone can say that. I do think they should have to do something. You, you maybe get, um, have somebody who is a trainer from another school, check you out or something, something to be fair to everyone else, because I think that's not the masses that own a train that's select individuals. And so I agree that, that they should have that, right. If they want it, wouldn't be how I would go. But I, I think you have to kind of at least make it there for the masses first.
Speaker 2 00:45:32 Sure. Can I address the second part of your question? So what, you know, what, what, if anything, are we doing about it? We as a nag. So, um, I don't know how much you're aware of how, how the national Federation of the blind comes up with policy in terms of what is going to be a new stance and a new direction. So the way this happens is by way of resolutions at our conventions, because ultimately the membership floor and the convention is the Supreme authority in terms of what direction the NFV takes. And so when someone, and whether that someone is an individual or division or a chapter or an affiliate, whoever has an idea, Hey, I think this would be great for the NFP to do well. We can't just say, okay, great. Let's do it. You know, we, you know, we have to be fair.
Speaker 2 00:46:20 It's a democracy we have, it has to bill essentially up the channels, right? And so the resolutions is how we do this. And so someone comes up with a resolution, they write it, we, we give some facts that establish some history and establish existing things that we know to be true. And then we establish it by way of writing, what we would like to change and what we would like to see happen when if these resolutions make it to our convention floor and they are voted by the membership, then they become an FB policy. And if it becomes NFE policy, then with the NFP, does something about it, whether it's through the, um, through the division or the affiliate spearheading that new, uh, venture or whether it's, you know, from the, from our NFP, you know, from our, our headquarters in Baltimore, in general. And so this year, uh, Nadu is admitting three resolutions to the convention.
Speaker 2 00:47:26 And one of them is specifically, um, about the department of transportation regarding the accessibility and the, the problems that have come up for guide dog users, uh, to fly because of these forms. And I know this doesn't address your question right away, but we're where I'm going with. This is, let's say that this resolution passed as a, let's say that it becomes policy. Then it is very possible that when we, as in the NFP, um, engage, whether it's through, through, um, open communication in a positive way or through litigation or through anything, any, any avenue available to us with the department of transportation, to talk to them about changing this law, you know, changing laws or whatever, even if we have to lobby, it is possible that we may do something where we start talking about what do we do about people who are passing these, the themselves as a guide dog handlers, or service animal handlers, isn't that fraud.
Speaker 2 00:48:32 And, and aren't you the government who, who opposes fraud. So maybe we need to make something into law, have the government make something in the law that's going to address that specific issue. And if that's the case, then that means lobbying. It means, you know, doing what, what we have done for years and years and years where we lobby Congress to make laws happen. And it, and it has been successful in the, if you look at the history, what the NFP has done through lobbying efforts, we have been able to make change. And so I see this as something that if we take it that way, we could address the bigger picture. It won't happen today or this year, but I think it can happen.
Speaker 1 00:49:12 I guess I think that going that way could do something, but I think that's a harder way, I think because then you have to, yes, it may be fraud. It may be something, but you, then you have to get the other party to take, um, to take issue with it. You have to get them to, um, implement the punishment or the, you know, to be able to punish the crime. So, and I don't know how that always works, but it's good to know when you said that the, um, committee, the membership votes on these things, do you mean the nag do committee or the, our membership or the NFP membership in general,
Speaker 2 00:49:52 The entire membership. So
Speaker 1 00:49:54 Do you worry that that's not enough guide dog users in that membership for them to really pull apart what's important and going on in the guide dog user
Speaker 2 00:50:03 Very much. It is a, it is a very strong worry that, um, you know, because not everybody's a guide dog user, right? Uh, we try to this year, what we've been trying to do is essentially campaigning for these resolutions. You know, so we've been having, uh, you know, a couple of town hall meetings, questions and answers, et cetera, et cetera. We, you know, advertise those on our list. On Facebook. We ask people to them. We asked people to really get that awareness out there that this is happening because we need the NFE memberships support. And this, this bit about support is not something that I only see with guide dog users, we're all human. And so a lot of times when someone reads government stuff for policy stuff, or, you know, those kinds of things, there are people who may be in the organization and this was of any organization for the fun aspect of it.
Speaker 2 00:50:56 You know, uh, what, what fun stuff does this organization as they should have to offer for me, they may not be interested and, and policy or long-term stuff, what can happen in a, in a year or two or four years down the line. And so a lot of people may tune out and, you know, when I was a younger person, a lot of times I confess I would do not have resolutions. You know, they didn't want interests, or let's say that I did tune in, but they were talking about ham radios. Well, if I'm not a ham radio, maybe operator, maybe I'm not going to be interested in amateur radio stuff. If I'm not a diabetic, why would I care what the diet with the diabetes division wants to do to make talking glucometers a reality? You know what I mean? And so that's why I really strongly believe that when you are a minority within a group, you really need to advocate and really spell it out in such a way and explain it as to why this is important and why it could be important to all people, whether they're dialed on users or not.
Speaker 1 00:51:53 How do you get involved with NEC do, how can somebody get involved?
Speaker 2 00:52:00 No, seriously. So, you know, um, on our website, you know, we have our website, you can join the webs, they join the website. We have a membership page there, and you can ask for information, you can send an email. I don't know if it's appropriate to give our email address over the air, but please give the website. Alright, so the website is nag, new.org. It's an AGBU dot O R G. And the email address to reach the entire board of directors is board at nag, new.org. And I, I jokingly, always say that is spelled B O a R D at Nagar or not the other board. And, um, that will reach everybody. But we, you know, you can also reach us by officer name, like president at mag, do VP at nag, do et cetera. Um, but I always encourage people to write the board. And then the appropriate board member will answer with any questions and with our welcome packet, if necessary and, and those kinds of things
Speaker 1 00:52:57 Very quickly, what would you like to see neg to do that they're not doing now?
Speaker 2 00:53:03 I would like for us to have a database of information available, as I mentioned before, with the whole informed choice where we can have all guide dog training programs on board with their contracts or policies or procedures, their do's, and don'ts in an upfront, clear way for people to be, uh, as informed as they can, when they decide on a certain guide dog training program. Raul,
Speaker 1 00:53:31 It's been great talking to you. Thank you so much for being willing to share your time.
Speaker 2 00:53:36 Thank you for having me on. It's been wonderful.
Speaker 3 00:53:40 This has been disability and progress to views expressed on the show. It may not be those of cafe or its board of directors. This is Kathy Ivan with the FM Minneapolis and cafe.org. This is disability and progress. Amie. Harvey is my engineer. Thank you, Annie Charlene dolls, my research team. Thank you, Charlene. You've been speaking with Sproul Geicos. Raul was talking about nag duke national association of guide dog users. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. If you want to be on my email list, you can email
[email protected]. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 0 00:54:16 Good night. <inaudible>.
