Speaker 1 00:01:00 Um, thank you for listening to disability and progress or joining us. We bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Thanks so much for tuning in Charlene dolls. My research team. Hello, Charlene Rooney evening, everybody. Annie Harvey engineers. Thank you, Annie. And tonight we are speaking with Peter AltSchool. Hopefully I pronounce that correctly again. I'm not sure I can do that two times in a row, um, who is with us. And we are talking about his book, writing elephants, a creative common ground where contention rules, hypey.
Speaker 2 00:01:39 Hi, and he did get my last name, uh, correctly. So thank you.
Speaker 1 00:01:42 That's yeah. Okay. I'll try that. I'll try to let it happen again. Alright, so Peter, I'm going to start out a little bit by getting some history about you and how you decided to become a writer.
Speaker 2 00:01:58 I never thought I'd be a writer. I was, I didn't, I never enjoyed writing in school or in college. He was one of those things I had to do, you know, to, to, you know, to get the job done in one way or another. Uh, and back in about 2005, I went to get my, uh, fifth guide dog, uh, at guiding eyes for the blind in Yorktown Heights, New York. And back then, of course there were no blogs. So what I did every day is I, I went upstairs and I typed an email sort of summarizing what was happening and what I was thinking and feeling. And I sent it off to probably 50 people every day for like two weeks. And, um, when I got home, I called all my contacts and they said, and I took to find out how things were going and, you know, to get back to the swing of things regarding work.
Speaker 2 00:02:48 And they all said, Hey, this was a great blog. You should write a book. And I thought they were crazy. And certainly, and, and then when I moved to Columbia, Missouri, um, uh, my wife, uh, residents said, Hey, you should write a book. And I thought she was crazy. And they said, well, why don't you take a non-fiction writing course? And I don't even know what a non-fiction writing course was. I'd never taken a creative writing course. And then she said, um, well, there's this course that the university of Missouri is putting on for graduate students. Why don't you apply for it? And I thought, okay, I'll apply for it. I won't get in. And that'll be the end of the conversation. So I, I, um, you know, I, I, you know, I applied, I sent samples of my writing, which was primarily business writing cause I'd done a lot of read written reports and, um, much to my shock, I was accepted. And this was, this is a Mac, this is a PhD level writing course that, you know, like, uh, you know, that I never should've gotten into, you know, but I was accepted. And the professor was a fabulous editor. I learned so much from her about how to write in English and not businesses or legalees or bureaucrat teas and, you know, and I, um, and, and I, and that's when I started writing the first book, which is the memoir breaking barriers, working loving while blind. And then the rest is sort of history.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 Tell me a little bit about that book because that's not the one I saw, but I am curious about it.
Speaker 2 00:04:17 Breaking news is a memoir. It's actually based on those blogs that I wrote that I talk about talked about earlier. Um, I sort of used those blogs as a starting point for the memoir and the book sort of talks about my time at guiding eyes, uh, and getting, uh, at home with, with Jules the new dog and goes from there to, uh, getting married in Columbia, Missouri. And during that time my stepmother died and my father died. And, and, and of course when you're going through a major changes like that, you reflect on what's happened in your prior life. So I write a lot about those reflections. Uh, and I also write a lot about what makes guiding eyes session, effective organization and that what other org, what other businesses and organizations can learn from guiding eyes. Uh, my background is an organization behavior. So this gave me an excuse to write about that as well as my, sort of my, my life history. So that's
Speaker 1 00:05:16 Excellent. All right. Well, thank you very much for that explanation. Um, I want to talk about the book that we're here to talk about tonight, riding elephants, creating common groundwork contention rules. How did you get, how did you get the name for that book?
Speaker 2 00:05:34 Uh, well, um, if there's, if that's a two part story, so there is, uh, a book called the righteous mind by a, uh, a political writer named Jonathan Haidt, H a I D T, which came out in 2012. And he, as a book does lots of interesting things, but, but for the purposes of this conversation, he, um, has this idea of elephants, the image of an elephant Bealing being our feelings. And we, as the elephants writers have to learn how to control our feelings or use them to put them to good use. And, um, so that's where the that's where the writing Elvis came from. And I, and I wasn't sure what that, if I was gonna use that as the title, but then when I started circulating some articles around my friends and my communities, I started getting calls from people saying, Hey, this image is really cool.
Speaker 2 00:06:35 We're using it in our conversations a lot. And I thought, Oh, well, if they're using it, then maybe I should put that in the title. So that's the writing elephants part do creating common ground where contention rules comes from the, my second book. So when I was getting ready to publish my second book, which is another, uh, earlier group of essays, the publisher said, what would you say your life scene has been small enough that you could put it on a banner? You know, uh, you know, so it has to be small and, uh, and, and memorable. And I, I not really fond of doing writing those kinds of things, but I thought about it and this I've most of my professional life. And even my, um, personal life has been around the issue of creating common ground. You know, you work with people who have different experiences or backgrounds or, or, or, or histories to create that common ground where contention rules, contention of course, is another word for conflict. And I kinda liked the, uh, you know, that, uh, alliteration creating common ground where contention rules. And so that's where the both parts of that title came from.
Speaker 1 00:07:47 Excellent. Well, I should never come to my house. I have a teenagers, there's a lot of conflict,
Speaker 2 00:07:58 So I have some sympathy. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:08:01 The sympathy is right. I want to ask you about a couple quotes or comments in your book that you have. I'm curious. One of them is, um, I remind myself that my goal is not to win the argument, but to state clearly what I believe in, why talk about that purpose of act of stating your opinion then?
Speaker 2 00:08:27 Well, especially when I'm working with people who I have differing perspectives and political beliefs than I do, I don't think it is my role to change somebody's mind. First of all, it's, it's not likely to happen. You know, it, when you, when you are, uh, you know, have a strong belief about something it's not going to change based on one conversation. Um, and so it really not, I, and it's made my life a lot easier and made my it's a pressure on me, less, less daunting when I have these conversations. My role is just to be able to communicate what I believe and why that's hard enough as it is. Um, and, and, and, and then, you know, how it influences that other person, I have no control over that. I really don't. And, um, and it's been very liberating for me to re w when I remember that when I'm having these conversations, you know, my job has to be, is to communicate as clearly as I can. And that's it, that's the end of my, uh, responsibility.
Speaker 1 00:09:30 So, in your experiences though, what does make a person change your mind, their mind if they change it,
Speaker 2 00:09:37 When we're talking about these contentious, like abortion or race relations, or, you know, gun control or all those issues that we are, um, um, usually those, those hot topics, those culture war topics are bound with how you were raised and, and experiences you had in your life. And the only way that's going to change is if you have a, a really, uh, significant experience. So for example, with the area of gun control, maybe, uh, you're you, you are, um, pro uh, or anti gun control, then a friend of yours with an illegal gun. Well, that, that, that gives that might get you to thinking, okay, maybe there's something, you know, that maybe my opinion might change a little bit. Um, and I should also say that it might not change fully. In other words, I might still be, um, anti gun control, but not as strongly, or I believe there are certain circumstances when gun control might be a good thing, you know, I might not change totally, but I might change a little bit. And that, that itself is a major accomplishment. I write about the book about the idea of, uh, of a spectrum or continuum where you start on one end, where you're very powerfully in one direction at the very end. You're very much at the, uh, you know, at the other end, but we're, most of us aren't on either end we're in the middle somewhere. Yeah. People sort of move up and down the spectrum based on experiences and conversations that we have.
Speaker 1 00:11:13 So you yourself though, have you had, you don't have to state them, but have you had experiences that have really changed how you felt when you started out one way,
Speaker 2 00:11:25 Not fully, but, um, what, what does the things that I did, uh, which is one of the most interesting professional experiences I had was working with, um, pro-life and pro-choice activists, I'm not talking about the, you know, run of the mill people, but folks who really were, uh, strongly on one side of the issue or, and her bringing them together to have conversations. And when they could agree on something to have them work on that were related to abortion. So it might be teen pregnancy prevention, it might be adoption. It might be, uh, making the language less inflammatory might be a number of things, but, um, and I, um, I'm still pro-choice, but I now have much more empathy for where the pro-life folks are coming from. And I am, I am not quite as doctrinaire on the pressures pro-choice issue as I used to be.
Speaker 2 00:12:21 Um, I still have problems with the pro-life position, but, but I, but I am much less doctrinaire on the topic. And after doing that, having that experience, working with the folks on both sides, it's helped me sort of rethink a lot of my issues. You know, that what I've learned is that there are plenty of, you know, well-meaning good people on the other side, on the other side of the issue that I, that I like those people, and I respect them. I just don't agree with them. And that was, that's been a very powerful lesson for me that I often forget to my detriment, but when I remember it, it really does help.
Speaker 1 00:12:58 You probably all do actually. Yeah, of course. Um, so one of the other things is you say, I remember that greater differences can exist too. Let's see. What was that greater differences can exist among groups, um, within groups and among groups. So what's the difference with that? Explain that one.
Speaker 2 00:13:20 If, if, um, if you, if you talk about, um, I don't want to talk about disability, right. Um, all, uh, I'm, I'm totally blind. I was, I was totally blind since first, yet there, there is a lot of disagreements among the black, the disability community, and all kinds of stuff, whether it be, whether it be political, whether it be, uh, you know, uh, ethics, whether it be how we conduct our lives, what our values are, you know, there's all kinds of differences. And we sort of forget, um, that there's a lot of differences within our community. And sometimes they're different, they're, they're greater than the groups that aren't disabled, you know, and, and, uh, and that's really helpful for me because, you know, when I'm working with people with disabilities, if I remember, Hey, we, we don't always agree on stuff. It makes me a little more, um, careful about how I frame issue, because I may, I may be talking to someone who totally disagrees with me. I don't know. So I tried not to make as many assumptions as I used to. And it's true for all groups. That's true among women. It's true among, uh, people from other under-represented groups. It's true of, uh, you know, fill in the blank.
Speaker 1 00:14:38 Yeah. Yeah. I, I remember thinking I was very wise many years ago and I confronted a militant blind person and said, you know, if instead of being broken up in a different blind groups, if we all kind of band together and just supported the different things we wanted and agreed that the other ones wouldn't rebel against those things, we'd probably get a lot further. And she looked at me and said, and that will never happen.
Speaker 2 00:15:04 Well, that's too bad because yeah,
Speaker 1 00:15:08 That's exactly what I said is like, that's really sad because you will always be the weaker link. We will always be Wicker apart rather than together.
Speaker 2 00:15:17 Right. And, and, and by the way, this happens in every group, you know, it, and I write about this in the book, you know, it does, if, if you're, if you're Christian, if you're a Christian, if you're Jewish, if you're a, an athlete, if you're, you know, fill in the blanks, it happens with every single group. And if we can remember that, there's a lot of differences within our groups. And there are sometimes a lot, uh, greater within than among groups. It really makes a difference in how you have these conversations.
Speaker 1 00:15:44 Yes. I want to ask you about another, um, thing that I found interesting in the book you said, I think, or, um, think about how creating common ground doesn't mean you can't have strong opinions and doesn't mean you'll always meet in the middle. So if you can't meet in the middle, how does one move forward?
Speaker 2 00:16:07 Well, let, let me talk about, I work with the pro-life or pro-choice activists. They never changed their views. One iota on abortion, either really strongly pro-choice or pro-life. And they had a very interesting conversation. Sometimes they were contentious. Sometimes they were quiet and low key. It depended on the group and dependent on lots of things, but, but the question was okay, what are things that we can work together on that are, that are abortion related, um, that, that we could live, that we're comfortable with, you know, without changing our views, we're not, you know, we, we always said to the groups, we're not asking you to change your views on abortion. We want you to understand what the other thinks and feels, but we're not asking you to change your views, but what are some of the issues that you all can work together, um, that are abortion related?
Speaker 2 00:16:58 And what we found, uh, among many of these groups is that there are three issues. I think I mentioned them a little bit before. One of them was the teenage pregnancy prevention. Nobody wants teenage pregnancy, you know, uh, on unplanned pregnancies. So what are some things that the community can do and the parents can do, and the whoever can do to make teenage pregnancy less likely, right? What are some? And so they, uh, we, we got some funding to do some work together on that topic. I spent a year in Glendale, Arizona doing just that, that based on the group that was working there. Um, the second issue was, um, adoption, you know, um, the adoption is a complicated issue, but both groups saw that there really might be some work they could do together, uh, to, to, you know, to encourage adoption or at least make it more understandable to a lot of folks.
Speaker 2 00:17:49 People don't sometimes understand the complexities of adoption and what it means. And so that was the second issue. And the third issue, and this was back in the late nineties, when things are really contentious, was to tone down the language and not to use those hot button words, um, that were, that both sides permeate the pro-life side, but also the pro-choice side were used to label, you know, the other side that was really destructive and those three topics were, were, were huge. Um, and the fact that they could work on those topics without, you know, changing their views and being able to talk about those views continue it, um, really was a very powerful experience for everybody involved, including me. So, um, and so the same thing applies to every other group of the universe, you know, uh, you know, the pro and anti gay rights, you know, there are things that they can work on the whole racial relations thing, there issues that can work on, you know, and, you know, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick a, pick, a contentious issue, gun control, you know, so many now you, you, you could find those sort of overlaps that both groups could work on.
Speaker 2 00:18:54 And of course that takes some time to get there, you know, cause the groups have to have trust each other and it's a long, you know, it's a complicated process anyway. So that's, that's, that's what I answered your question. You know, the, and sometimes it does make meeting in the middle. Sometimes it means, you know, horse trading and it means, okay, you know, uh, I'll give you this. If you give you that, you know, kind of thing, then that's a perfectly valid approach sometimes, but it's not always since I've in most of the time, I don't think
Speaker 1 00:19:21 So. You talk about riding elephants, explain the term elephants pertaining to this book.
Speaker 2 00:19:26 Right? So elephants are feelings. Um, and uh, the research indicates that it's the feelings that generate the energy, not the thought. So I'll give you an example, right? A thought is I like pizza, right? Pizza pizza is good. And we might disagree on the flavors, but I like pizza. Well, if I'm hungry, that's a feeling that's going to have a different impact than if I'm full or if I'm relaxed, it might have a different reaction than that. If that, if I'm stressed out and I want you to comfort food, right? Hungry, stressed out is a, is a, is a relaxed, is a, is a feeling it's, it's those feelings that generate the energy. It's not the thought, it's the feelings behind the thoughts that generates the energy. And so, uh, we can all become better elephant writers, feelings, feelings, uh, steerers, if you will. So that those feelings to, to, to a good end.
Speaker 1 00:20:27 So this kind of leads into the discussion that you have about thought channels and feeling channels. To me, it feels so much like right now, our political system, there's definitely these thought people when it came to at least the virus and these feeling people. And, um, do you want to talk a little bit just about that whole concept of channels and feeling channels?
Speaker 2 00:20:54 Yeah. So let me, let me, uh, let me back up a little bit. So have you ever been in a situation and I asked the audience this as well as the hosts where you're working with somebody and you really are trying to have a conversation and you really are, are, uh, trying to make things, work out, whatever it is, and it's not working, right. It happens with spouses quite, quite often. What happens between bosses and employees? It happens to be parents and children, and you're having this conversation and you're doing everything you can to make it work and it's not working well. Why is that? Why? Well, there are lots of reasons why, but one of the reasons is that one person is talking thought language and one person is talking feelings language. And the way this often comes out is you have, um, a person from an underrepresented group.
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Let's say, let's say women who are just totally frustrated about something, you know, and they're just venting and they're venting a whole lot of feelings about whatever, whatever the situation is. And the, um, the other person, often white men are talking about how to solve the problem while solving the problem is a thought, it's a thought channel. And unless you can connect with the feelings channel of the person to speak, to expressing that frustration or that irritation or that joy, whatever it is, unless you can connect with that feeling, you are not going to communicate with that person effectively. It just is not going to happen. Not only are you not going to be able to communicate effectively, if you continue along this line, it's going to get worse and worse and it's going to get more and more frustrating for everybody involved. And so that's really what we're talking about here, you know?
Speaker 2 00:22:31 And, um, and I write about how I used to run a cold lead a week long, um, team building seminars, um, with complete strangers. And this happened at least once in every session. And, you know, and then people would sort of notice, okay, we're not communicating effectively, what's going on. And the, the guy who ran the show, Dr. Kenneth soul would say, Hey, there's a feelings channel. There's a thought channel. And that, and the other thing that I should say about this is doesn't mean, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean you need to spend equal time on both channels. Sometimes all it takes is to share a story that's connected to the conversation. Can stories a really good story connects on both channels. Um, or it may just being saying, Hey, I'm enjoying this conversation. You know, I, uh, how are you doing, you know, just to connect with the feelings or I, you know, um, this is so frustrating, right? Frustrating is a feelings word, or, you know, something that, that shows the other person that you're connecting on, on the feelings channel, because sometimes this all takes, you know,
Speaker 1 00:23:36 Does, does also like lining the thoughts, concept up with a feeling concept, does that help both sides? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:42 Yes. But, but, but the point is, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But again, feelings to the things that drive the energy, it's not the thoughts. So you connect with that energy and it's, and that's getting back to the abortion issue. For example, that's a lot, what happened, trusting is a feeling right trust. I, uh, and so once people began to trust each other and feel more relaxed around each other and grow that respect that they didn't have before, then all of a sudden these though, these, these, the, the ways that we're the other came out, but it didn't come out until that there was enough trust and enough relaxation around the other, uh, for the, for those things to happen.
Speaker 1 00:24:20 So this leads me into another concept you talk about, um, which is trash talk and trust talk,
Speaker 2 00:24:27 Same, same basic idea. So, um, trash talk, we all know a trash talk is right. We, and anybody who has been around athletes, my, my stepson, uh, recently graduated from college and he was, he was on a scholarship as a college football player, and he spent a bunch of his time trash talk on the opponents. You know, the way I define trash talk is making ourselves feel better by making, by, by saying nasty things about them. It's all about us and them, right? Making ourselves feel better by demeaning, by demeaning the other that's what trash talk is. And there's, there's an, I am not against trash talk. There is a place for trash talk. Um, in fact, I'd make the argument that Jesus used trash talk. Uh, when he, when he, when he criticized the, the religious leaders and the government leaders of his time, he said all kinds of nasty things about the Pharisees and Chacha seas and things. And he did it, I think, in part to encourage his apostles and those following him, disciples, you know, um, you know, uh, I think that's a part why he did it now. I am not a theologian. I'm sure I'll get some pushback by folks who are theologians, but it seems to me, I don't see how you can not interpret what he said as trash talk. You know, you, you hypocrites, you, uh, you know, you, you courses, you know, he says some really harsh things, these leaders, and anyway, so that's trash talk.
Speaker 1 00:25:52 I always feel like there's a difference in trash talk and joking and talking to be me and yeah,
Speaker 2 00:25:57 Well, but that's an interesting example. Let me let's, let me come back to that for a second, but let me talk about trust. Talk first trust talk is, is essentially lowering, lowering those barriers and doing things so you can share experiences and feelings and stories and whatever. So, so you can, you can build that, trust, that feeling of trust to build that positive energy between you and them. And that's what that's, what trust talk is. Uh, I make, make a reference, um, to a Taylor Swift song, which I give a link to, um, drawing a blank on the name, but she has a wonderful job on that song, trashing trash talk. It's really quite, quite funny. It's a terrific song of her, his view. If you can tolerate Taylor Swift, I encourage you to listen to it. It's in the book. And I can't remember what the song is called.
Speaker 2 00:26:47 I'm drawing a blank anyway. Um, so let's talk about the jokes situation. Cause jokes can cut either way and sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's hard to tell, which is trust talking, which is trash talk. So let me tell you what happened to me. What, what prompted me to write that essay in the first place I belong, I belong to before the virus hit to the praise band, I was the drummer in my, our churches praise band. And, um, we were coming back after the sermon to, um, pull it to play again. And the minister was preaching. And for those who don't know, we drove her, sit on what we call a drum stool or a throne, and the drum stool could swivel. So I was sitting on this drum stool and I, I, I hadn't sat properly. So I tried to swivel. So I could be sitting in the right, facing the right direction.
Speaker 2 00:27:36 And this, the stool mate, this huge squeaking noise, just this Mabbott gargantuan squeaking device, right in the middle of the minister's prayer. And, uh, the nurses had excused and I, and I said, Oh, sorry. You know, and that was, and so that was that on the way home, the bass player said to me, Hey, you need to, you need to, um, uh, how would you say you need to, uh, uh, to, to cut back on your, but now you have a big button back on your butt. I knew that this is how this thoughts and feelings, things were, I'd known this guy for a year. He was a terrific guy. And I really genuinely think he was trying to do the trust talks. And he was trying to see, try to empathize in a, in a funny way, but it was so embarrassing notice that there was so water fine, then I could, I couldn't accept it that way.
Speaker 2 00:28:29 And it's not that we did like each other, you know, we still liked each other. And, and, but I couldn't quite see the humor in it at that moment, you know? And so that was sort of trash talk, but it sort of, he, I know he met it well, right. But it, at that moment, it felt more like the meeting then. Um, so it really, it, you know, sometimes it's hard to tell, but we know for the most part when we're trash talking, when we're, and when we're trust talking, right. We know what they're, it sounds as we're not sure. And when that happens, we, you know, sometimes we apologize and sometimes we get the folks who, you know, who who've experienced this sort of come to realize that it was met in good, in good faith. And then you say, Hey, you know, I know you, I know you met this a good face. I just wasn't ready to hear it, which is what I told the bass player later, later on, like, you know, um, I, I know you met this for good, but, you know, and, and he, he got it and we moved on with our lives and that was it. But this stuff happens all the time. Um, in, in small, small ways,
Speaker 1 00:29:27 I'd like to talk about another term that you have in the book called rubber band rederick.
Speaker 2 00:29:33 Yeah. No rubber bed rhetoric is, is, is a, is a concept with groups and think about a rubber band. I love playing with rubber bands as a kid, you know, cause you could stretch them and you, you could get different sounds with them and you could stretch them and they could, you know, let, let's go back to normal with a snap. You know, uh, you know, a THWACK is I call it in the book and groups are sort of like rubber bands. Um, and they're constantly, uh, uh, expanding or contracting their boundaries based on whatever the situation is. And the example I give in the book is, um, when I was in high school, I was the only blind person in the high school I attended. And I ran with the musicians and the athletes and I was originally smart kid. Um, but I, I couldn't like totally acknowledged that with that, with those kids, because that'd be considered an egg head.
Speaker 2 00:30:24 This is high school politics, right. As an egghead and not as a, a cool guy who likes forcing music that the two didn't didn't connect always in high school, at least not. I went to, so, so I apply to Princeton university, um, as a senior, but I didn't tell any of them, any of my, any of my friends until I got in. And the only reason that I T I found they found out is because, you know, the word got around the school and people said, Hey, all show, we didn't know you were that smart. And I, that, that was, that was the persona I was using. And the reason I did that, getting back to the rubber bands is I didn't want that rubber band, you know, that rubber band barrier, a rubber band, uh, banner, as I called it to snap it and exclude me, right. That's stinging rubber band. You know, if you've been stumped by rubber band, it stings, you know, and I didn't, I didn't want that. And so every group does this, every group figures in who's done and who's out to do certain things and to contracts and expands
Speaker 1 00:31:26 So true in high school. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:31:28 Well, it's true, but it's true everywhere, right?
Speaker 1 00:31:30 It is true everywhere, but it feels like junior high and high schools gets off. It's, it's rough in junior high, a little less rough in high school, but yeah,
Speaker 2 00:31:38 No, I think that's right. But, but it's, but it's even hard as you know, it's hard as an adult, right? So, um, we, as blind people find it hard to get into the, some in some of these groups, because they're not expanding their, they're not expanding their rubber band enough. Excuse me. Um, and so, and it's an important concept because we sort of forget that this happens in every group. You know, it doesn't matter what the group is, you know, name the group, political groups, religious groups, sports teams, you know, uh, uh, hobbies. It's, it's a constant thing. And, um, so, uh, then sometimes it's, sometimes it can be healthy and sometimes that is not healthy at all. And then I write about that in the book a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:32:20 Um, sometimes it, well, it feels like you went through and chose every, uh, conflict discussion that is really, um, almost current during this time. Uh, what inspired you to write such a book like this?
Speaker 2 00:32:36 When I finished my memoir, I was working with a publicist and she said, you need to start writing a blog. And I said, okay, uh, what should I write about? And she said, whatever you want, well, I have lots of interests. And I said, well, what advice? Okay. W well, okay, what else, what advice do you have for me? And she said, keep each blog under 750 words. And that was the best advice I ever got, because at least, I don't know what you think, but I've read a number of blogs. And some of them are just so long that I just don't have time to read them. So these blogs, I, I deliberately try to, again, try to keep these blogs short and punchy so that people could read them, you know, and in five minutes or less and react to them and then move on with their lives, if that's what they wanted to do.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 Um, and so I started writing blogs and about whatever each interested me at the moment, you know, whether it be politics or sports or music or family life, or workplace behavior, or, uh, religious stuff, Christianity, uh, uh, as I call it rhetorical rabbit holes. And, uh, and they, they, those blogs became the basis for my second book, which is creating common ground, uh, sorry, uh, breaking it down and connecting the dots, creating common ground work, contention rules. And then my current book, writing elephants, creating common ground where contention rules and, um, the, the first book are blogs. Essentially. I wrote from during president Obama's second term, and the writing elephants primarily were written during president Trump's term. And this writing elephants starts essentially with Trump's first year of Trump's administration and ends with, uh, with, uh, president Biden, being a big sworn in, I mean, that those are the blogs, um, that covers and the book isn't just politics. A lot of it is not, but I'm just trying to describe the years involved that the blogs were written the zeitgeists, if you will.
Speaker 1 00:34:41 So you do talk about the next concept I wanted you to discuss, which was rhetorical rabbit holes. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 00:34:51 Communicate with rhetoric is another way of saying communicate and we, their communication styles and their rhetorical styles and, you know, whatever. But, um, the rabbit holes are things that we, if we're not careful, we fall down for those of us, who've read Alice in Wonderland. You know, if her venture starts by falling down a rabbit hole, and then she had spent the rest for the book trying to get out, it's hard to get down. It's hard to get out of the rabbit hole. So, um, the, the, the, that section of the book has a number of essays talking about rabbit holes that I've seen and how we might to avoid them, what we might do to avoid them. And, you know, if we're in them, what we might do to get out of them, you know, things. And so, um, you know, there are a number of, uh, I, and that section, I think I talked about race relations.
Speaker 2 00:35:41 I talk about, uh, uh, the speech I would have made if, uh, if, uh, uh, if a Supreme court, certain Supreme court nominee was being considered, uh, uh, start the book with, uh, uh, sorry, I start the section with a story about my dad. Uh, and th th th th th th the story in a nutshell is, uh, we were very much, we hated the New York Yankees baseball team, and then it'd be, it became a year when that, and we were red Sox fans. So, um, we want the red Sox to win and the answer and the Yankees to lose that was, but then there was a year when the red Sox were competing for a pendant and the Yankees were not, and there are times when the Yankees, if the Yankees beat some teams that would help the red Sox and my dad, there are times when you have to put it against your enemy to root for your enemy, the Yankees in this case. So it will help the red Sox. And that was a sort of mind-blowing, uh, uh, concept for me as a ten-year-old kid, you know,
Speaker 1 00:36:41 Only four, almost like I'm voting for the, the lesser of two evils.
Speaker 2 00:36:46 I think it's, yes, I think, and I think it's more than that. I think it's, there really are situations where you really, you really need to, some of the, some of the good ideas come from the other, the other side, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, good ideas can come from anywhere. Um, but if you're not open to that possibility, you lose a lot of good ideas. And that was sort of an F you know, my dad was saying, Hey, there are times when you need to root for the Yankees. Without, for me, that was a set of mind, one concept for a 10 year old kid. And the th the miracle, the story is the red Sox won the pennant loss. So the next sort of was what got me started on this sort of common ground, uh, journey, that sort of weird, wonderful experience. Um, so that's, that's how that section starts.
Speaker 1 00:37:31 What do you want people to take away from your book?
Speaker 2 00:37:35 I want people to, um, a, uh, hopefully enjoy the book and, and, and help them think that there are ways different ways of thinking about your shoes. And I hope that people can get the concept that, you know, common ground creating common ground as possible. Uh, if we, you know, uh, use our energies to make that happen, not always, it's not always going to happen, but it's possible, you know, all, all the work I've done, um, is, is, is been getting people with very different backgrounds and experiences and cultures to work together, to get stuff done. And once, if you can, if you could get those groups to do it, to work together, lots of amazing, amazing things can happen. And I, uh, give us an example that the whole Dr. Martin Luther King thing, I mean, he brought together people from all different backgrounds to, to, uh, to deal with, um, you know, race issues and making integration, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 00:38:33 He, you know, he brought people from all walks of life, you know, and they learn to work together, even though they disagreed on lots of stuff. And, uh, you know, the, the really good leaders can do that kind of stuff. Um, I think about guide dog schools is the other example that comes to mind for those of us who have been to get, get a service dog you're with people who you, you know, you, you haven't met before often who come from very different backgrounds of, uh, you know, different ages, different genders, all of that is so true. And, and, um, the, the, the genius of the schools is they have figured ways of getting people to work together. So we can each learn to beat better dog handlers. And, um, nothing's perfect. I mean, every person has gone to a guide dog school or service we'll, we'll, we'll talk about examples of things falling apart, and every, every, every employee of a guide dog school, we'll, we'll, we'll share her story.
Speaker 2 00:39:28 So this is not perfect, but it works more far more often than not. And the reason is in part, because everybody understands what the mission is, right? It's a very clear mission. We're all there to learn, to be better dog handlers, to put it in, in the broadest possible terms. And with, with that mission, a lot of these differences, even though they're important are far less important. So that's a, long-winded answer to answer your question. I really hope that people, uh, that the book help government helps them think supports them and thinking a little bit differently. And it conveys the idea that you really can find that common ground or created, uh, uh, if you do certain things a certain way,
Speaker 1 00:40:10 But you gotta wanna, you
Speaker 2 00:40:11 Have to want it, and you have to expect that it will be successful. You, you, um, you know, as I said, you're not going to change somebody's mind on a culture war issue with an, uh, with just one conversation. It just isn't going to happen at any may. Never change somebody's mind, but that doesn't mean you see it, it doesn't mean that you can't work together on issues that are related to that topic or another issues, you know? Uh, and, uh, so that, that really is the point. And, and, and some of the essays are funny. I hope some of them make you laugh. Humor is a, uh, laughter is a, is a feeling, you know, some of them hope Nikki thinks some of them are, you know, are, are in the middle. You know? So, uh, and, and, and it's the kind of book where you don't have to read it, cover to cover.
Speaker 2 00:40:52 You can pick up the book, read a few essays, put it down, pick it up and read a few more. You know, it's not one of these books that you have to read, you know, uh, conscientiously from cover to cover. You could, you can pick and choose your, read the prologue, which is what we've been talking about. And then, and then read the rest of the book because the rest of them up is, are based on various themes, whether it be, uh, you know, uh, uh, business behavior or, or rhetorical rabbit holes, or culture, war issues, or Christian and Christianity, or pandemic times this, the last section I write about, you know, my, my experience going through what's going on in the past year. So anyway,
Speaker 1 00:41:28 I would like to talk a little bit about in your book, you talk a lot about your musical stuff. You know, you've a lot of musical experiences, um, and you talk about artists and you categorize them into either redwoods or chameleons. I'd like you to expand a little more on that, on that discussion point.
Speaker 2 00:41:49 I, I, uh, so first I, I should say that music is one of the best ways to create common ground, right? Uh, if you're seeing, so that's why that section is in there in part, um, you know, you, you can't sing in a choir with people and not feel closer, uh, you know, connections with those folks. It's, it's, it's impossible. Doesn't change the world, but it loosens things up a little bit. So, uh, redwoods or chameleons, um, I sort of make the argument that, that, uh, that there are sort of two kinds of artists and what are, what I call redwoods. And there, there are people who perfected a style, um, and perfected and learn how to play it, learn how to write in it, learn how to communicate it. And the example that comes to mind immediately is BB King blues, blues person. I saw him twice in person before he died.
Speaker 2 00:42:45 And of course he, he, uh, you know, he was a blues expert, but he was also able to communicate his love for the blues. You know, I mean, that, that's, that's what he lived. And, you know, he, he, he was, he was, uh, uh, a Redwood, you know, he really sort of, you know, he was, he was a blues dude, you know, um, and of course the other blues dudes too, but he, he was the one that I happened to hear. Um, so they're, they're the ones who perfect her style on the, and market it and use it and whatever, and sometimes incorporating other styles into it. But always, you always know what's blues, you know, it that's, that's what, that's what he did. And a lot of the European classical composers, you know, the symphony, the stringer turtle, heightened, Mozart, Beethoven, all those people, you know, builds a foundation, Motown music, build a foundation that other people continue to build on.
Speaker 2 00:43:37 People are still writing symphonies. People are still writing Motown tunes. Um, even now in 2021, um, if that style has changed a little bit, so that's, that's redwoods, chameleons are people who find a way to incorporate many styles into their music. You know, they, they don't focus on one style, but they find a way to imprint their, uh, personality or their creative genius or whatever onto those styles. So the, the example for me, uh, growing up was the Beatles and the Beatles started as a, uh, you know, a standard sort of rock and roll band at the time. And over seven years transformed into Sergeant pepper. It's just this astounding, you know, music that was so different from what, where, where they started. And they was just amazing, you know, and they, um, and they incorporate all kinds styles, different styles in that music, you know, uh, and the same thing with the white album. And, um, so what I do is I write about this, and then I list who I think are, so the, the, the, uh, the, the redwoods and the chameleons
Speaker 1 00:44:45 I see now, I think I, I get it. I was like, what does he mean? But I could see how you, you could play, I think you play sting in the chameleon. Um, and he is more like you, he does a lot of different variety, um, but you know, his sound exactly style and you know, his sound. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:05 Um, and, uh, yes, I think that's correct. And, um, I put steely Dan into, to the chameleon and Dave Matthews fan. I also put Taylor Swift in the, in the chameleon, even the other, I think Taylor Swift is one of those people who has, she's very versatile, very versatile. And, you know, you may not like her. Uh, but I think, I think she's an incredible talent in that sense. And, uh, and I imagine drag is, is another one who's, who's, who's, who's morphed into, into different styles. You know, they started and went now they're in a quite different place than they used to be
Speaker 1 00:45:38 Oftentimes, but not always. I thought that the chameleons are the ones that survived because not always, not always, but often, often,
Speaker 2 00:45:47 Right. I think they tend to have a longer career, but, you know, you have people like Risa Franklin, for example, although recent, you know, a recent, uh, RESA, uh, you know, it's, it's sort of, uh, it's sometimes it's hard to categorize, you know, some of these things are arbitrary and I'm sure people, if they read the, the essay will say, Oh, I got he's he's wrong. That's fine. I don't I'm I'm, you know, if you think I'm wrong, that's terrific. But that was one of those essays that I wrote to get people to think things differently.
Speaker 1 00:46:14 What was the most difficult section of this book for you to write and why I love when I can make a person have some silence?
Speaker 2 00:46:27 What you have to remember is that I wrote these blogs when I wanted to write them. So the question is not so much that I want it to write. I want it to write these blogs. The question was for me, what, what to, what to leave in and what to leave out. You that's a quote, a Bob Seger thing. And, um, there were some sections that were harder to decide than others. And that the section that I think comes to mind that perhaps is the most controversial is Christians and Christianity. I say some things in that that are, I think, are going to be very controversial for certain folks of the Christian heritage, Christian faith. Um, I won't go to that here, but I, and I really thought through about, okay, do I really want this to be in? Is this, you know, this, this is this conveying the message I want to convey, you know?
Speaker 2 00:47:18 Um, so as question of what, you know, uh, and so th those articles that are there, I really try to convey the messages. This is what I believe. And, and there are other ways I know there are other ways looking at it, and I hope that we could find ways to work together kind of thing. Um, and so I that's the that's the, but all those essays, I, I didn't have trouble writing because I wanted to write them. That's what I was thinking of for the time when I wrote them. If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 00:47:49 Yeah. I like, it feels like some of your, your, the, the jargon or topic, you know, the things that you use to describe things can line up so much with ex you know, describing people in the political arena. One of the ones you used are fans and, and, um, fanatics. So, um, can you kinda compare that and do you feel like that is a lot of the political arena?
Speaker 2 00:48:16 I absolutely do. So a fan is just your run of the mill fan. You root for a team, but you don't take it quite as seriously. You know, you might take it seriously. Like, for example, when the canceling she's played in the super bowl, you know, I was out, I might've been a fanatic that particular day, you know, cause we wanted the chiefs to it. But when the chiefs lost, which they did last year, you know, we, you know, you, you sort of warned for a couple of days and then you go on with your life. Well, fanatics are people who are fanatics all the time. You know, they, th their side is always right. Your side is always wrong. Uh, you know, uh, you know, they're your side only, only deals rationally. Their side is totally irrational. You know, you've, you've heard this stuff.
Speaker 2 00:48:58 There is no meeting in the middle of go meeting in the middle there. But as I say, the book there are fanatics and every side of every issue, you know, it doesn't matter what the issue is. We all are wired sort of the same way. Feelings, not thought ceilings, not thoughts, drive action. Doesn't matter who you are. And, uh, so, um, and the fanatics, I think it's, what's going on politically. I agree with you, uh, you, you know, and, and it's hard to, it's hard to create that common ground when people are, so it's a cultural thing, you know? Um, it seems like it's getting more so well, that's what I'm afraid of. And one of the things that, what gave back to the abortion work, I did, it was, it was, it was difficult for folks to communicate across that the pro-life pro-choice barrier, but in some way it was just harder for them to go back to their groups and say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. It's pretty cool. Cause they were viewed as traders. No. How dare you talk to the other side, right,
Speaker 1 00:49:59 Right. Which is a total collapse in any type of mediation or anything
Speaker 2 00:50:05 That's, that's exactly right. Same thing happens with divorce, right. And it contentious divorces, how dare you talk to the other person, you know, uh, and it's, it's, it's wildly destructive and this is what's going on. I think, uh, you know, in, in the, in the political thing. And, and, uh, as I write at the end of the book, the only way this is going to change, I think is if it's done from the bottom up, you know, that we, as individuals can try to do their job of reaching out to folks we don't agree with and not to change their minds, but to support each other as we can. You know?
Speaker 1 00:50:37 But I, I also think that if you stop supporting what, you know, the parts that you know are wrong, they won't have the support of those parts they need. Um, I don't know. I, I worry because I think you always kind of have to have some on each side that can do a little bit of the walk that you're talking about to be able to meet somewhere. But if you really don't, if you have someone on one side and none on the other or whatever that is, or not enough on either side then, and people are scared to even talk to the other side, that's when you are in trouble.
Speaker 2 00:51:18 Correct. And, and when we do the abortion project, we made sure that there was an equal number of folks in both sides, you know, to have these conversations. And, um, and we did certain other things to make it more likely. One of the things we did is we held these conversations behind closed doors, right. Uh, cause we want to conference the confidentiality to be, to be respected because otherwise, you know, you can't have these conversations, uh, in front of people, you know, it doesn't work. And you know, I like to think that maybe some of these conversations about politics are happening behind closed doors and that we don't know about them. I don't have any evidence of that, but the only way it's going to happen, it's, you know, it's the only way that's going to happen.
Speaker 1 00:52:00 We're running out of time, but I wanted just a couple of quick things is how do you control your elephant?
Speaker 2 00:52:07 I list a bunch of things. Um, and one of the, one of the things is, is, um, you've mentioned a number of them already, you know, reminding myself that my, my goal is not to, uh, to change the union, but, but to, uh, uh, um, but to just express mine, the idea of ideas could be built upon ideas. So instead of saying, but I often say, and which I find often should change the whole tenor of the conversation. You know what I'm saying? You know? Uh, but, but, but, but, but, but I say, yeah, and I, and it applies, okay, I get what you're saying and I'm trying to build on it. And I think it's a very subtle thing, but it's something I learned from somebody and it really made a difference in the way I think about things. And there are other things too, you know, I try not take myself too seriously. I try to remember that I'm often wrong. Uh, you know, there are things like that and it's sometimes really hard to do. You know, I know I am not perfect. I screw up all the time, but when I'm on it, it's a very powerful place to be.
Speaker 1 00:53:13 I used to tell my kids when they were little eat, no buts. That's something you sit on. Um, where can people get your books?
Speaker 2 00:53:23 They can go to, um, D L D books. That's David Leanora, David books.com/peter Altral that's Peter. And the last name is a L T S C H U L. Um, so that's kind of put that link on our website. Yeah, that'd be totally awesome. Uh, and um, if, if you, if you want to get ahold of me the best way to do that as my email address, which is easier to remember, which is creating common ground, all one
[email protected]. And if you want to reach out to me, I'm happy to, you know, to respond and I'll be happy to shoot you the link if that's what you want. So, but it's DLD books.com/well www.dldbooks.com/peter AltSchool.
Speaker 0 00:54:13 Peter. It's been really fun. Thank you very much for shedding, so much light on this. And, um, it was a very interesting read.
Speaker 2 00:54:19 Thank you. Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 0 00:54:23 This has been disability and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of KPI or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of the show. Charlene doll is my research team. Andy Harvey is my engineer. This is cafe 90.3, FM Minneapolis and cafe dot O R G. We've been speaking with author Peter AltSchool. Peter was talking about his book, writing elephants, creating common ground, where contention rules. If you want to be on my email list, you can email
[email protected]. Please also look for our podcasts. Thanks for listening.
