Disability and Progress-May 16, 2024-Glide!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI.org. [00:00:59] Speaker B: This is KFAI 90.3 FM, Minneapolis and KFAI Os. This is disability and progress where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam, I'm the host of the show. Thank you for joining. This May 16, 2024 episode is when we will be airing and Charlene Dahl is my pr and research person. Hello Charlene. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Hello everybody. I'm all excited about this one. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah, special thanks to Miguel for being my engineer today. And also, as always, thank you to Aaron for being my podcaster. Today. We're speaking with Amos Miller. Amos is from the company glidance and he will be talking about the product that he is producing called Glide. So Amos, if you would before, what I'd like you to do is give us a little history about you before glidance. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Hi Sam, it's such a pleasure to be here and thank you for inviting me for the show and to talk with you guys. I'd love to also hear a bit about your background when we get to it and your interest in this work. Because as we develop these kind of technologies, getting the real feedback from the ground on why it's interesting is something that I love to hear, but my brief background I'm blind myself first of all have RP. So I lost my sight, most of my sight in my twenties while I was doing my computer science degree. And then I really spent the rest of my career to date in tech, what I've always enjoyed doing. I did telecoms and the.com era back in the days. I then joined Microsoft in the late two thousands and really got into the Microsoft enterprise business, doing work in the UK, working out of Singapore for a number of years, really working in general Microsoft stuff if you like, helping companies build better technologies for their businesses. But at the same time I also started to volunteer for guide dogs for the blind, firstly initially in the UK, and really started to explore how technologies are going to be to have a meaningful impact on the lives of people with disability, people who are blind in particular. And that kind of combination of me being at Microsoft and with guide dogs led to were exploratory work that led to the product that some of your listeners might be familiar with called Soundscape. So I, myself and my co founder John L. Back in the day started the work on Soundscape, a navigation app for people who are blind and worked on that for a number of years at Microsoft research. And about a year and a half ago I took the plunge to really start. I started to explore a new world in mobility, which we'll talk about when we start talking about glide. I would also add, I'm a father, I have a 17 year old daughter, and I live in Seattle. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Ah, yes, the joys of teenage children. [00:04:47] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:04:52] Speaker B: Well, excellent. Thank you so much for that. And so you had your tech and experience. You've been on both sides of it. You started getting a lot of that before you lost your vision. And so have, I think, a unique way of being able to come at this. What we're going to talk about, because you have been able to see at one point and now you're not. So you are coming at with great experiences, I think, from both sides of the fence. [00:05:27] Speaker A: I mean, it's, I think the main point that you're making here, Sam, is how important it is, I think, to have a firsthand experience like it's alison. A testament to that. And the team at Glydance and teams that I've worked with in the past, we spend a lot of time as, as the people with the first hand lived experience explaining nuance that is not immediately clear to people who don't experience it firsthand. [00:06:04] Speaker B: Let's talk about glidance. How long has glidance been in existence? Where are you located and what is your mission? And how large is your team? Several questions there. Sorry. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so as, so glidens, first of all, let's start at the top. I'm the founder and CEO of Glydance, and Glidens is developing a new mobility aid, a new mobility aid that we call glide. And glide uses autonomous guiding technology to help a person navigate to it uses cameras and radars and other cool things to move to walk, guide you on a safe path, avoid obstacles, guide you to a destination, and really bring us another option alongside the cane or the guide dog as a mobility aid that we can start to integrate into our lives. [00:07:11] Speaker B: And how large is the team you. [00:07:12] Speaker A: Work with the team as we are, we are slowly growing, or rapidly growing, depending on the timeframe that you're thinking of. We are currently around eight people, but we get a lot of help from other people as well. So there's a good crew of people, really. I have to say, Sam, how fortunate I feel with the amazing people that have decided to join the team. Really world class robotics folks, AI and machine learning folks, product industrial design. And not only do they bring the amazing skills and understanding of the technical space, but they also bring the sensibility, willingness to be and immerse themselves in this scenario. And they were all with me at CSUN two weeks ago and really taking. Getting firsthand, seeing how people are experiencing, what people are struggling with, what stories people are telling, so that we can really. In some ways, I say that we are building this device out in the open in order for that immersion to occur, in order for the community to. And we'll talk about that later on as well. But for the community to be able to really evaluate and think what is critical in a device like this when it makes its way to people's hands. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Let's see. I think you still. You were once located in Washington state. Are you still there? [00:09:03] Speaker A: I am, yes. I'm in Seattle. [00:09:05] Speaker B: It's my old stomping grounds. Born in Washington state. Vancouver. [00:09:11] Speaker A: In Vancouver, Washington. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Very nice. Yeah. [00:09:14] Speaker B: So excellent. [00:09:16] Speaker A: We pass there on the way to Oregon quite regularly. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yes. So you have traveled a number of places. So really you have gotten a really. I feel like an interesting feel of so many different terrains and with probably buses and subways and all the different mobility traveling that you would have done. But you're originally from. [00:09:45] Speaker A: I'm originally from Israel. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Israel. And I'm just always been curious, you know, from Israel. I just don't. I think of it as maybe a more interesting or a harder place for a blind person to travel, but I'm not sure. So can you talk a little bit about what it's like for a person to be able to travel with a cane or dog independently in Israel? [00:10:12] Speaker A: Um, I would. So Israel is. I, uh. I only spent a few years being blind in Israel because I moved to London when I was 26 or so. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:10:31] Speaker A: I would say the infrastructure is perfectly modern, like 100% modern. I would say largely accessible. You know, I don't think it's, you know, we're talking about the sort of nineties, so that's, you know, ada type regulation was only starting to make its way and so on, but largely accessible. I was trained, initially used to use a cane while I was in university doing my computer science degree. And then towards the end of that period, I started to train with a guide dog, and I basically used a guide dog. I would say that Israel has the same. Probably a little bit tougher from the perspective of access. The laws around access and getting dogs. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Into taxis, that's not new in other countries, though. [00:11:28] Speaker A: So I would say the experience is fairly equivalent. Definitely used a lot of public transportation in Israel. And then when I moved to London. London is a very big city with a lot of people, and I used to commute across the London underground every day. You have to kind of you have to get a guide dog that is willing to deal with that level of stress. Push people, get in, you know, space, you just nose them out of the way and push your way into the train. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Exactly, yes. [00:12:09] Speaker A: And so I've definitely experienced that kind of navigation. I also used to commute to a city outside of London, so I used to take a train out every day. And I think I would say that the train station was probably the hardest step in that whole journey. Journey, and in many ways has been that experience, because the train appears at different platforms every time. Train station itself is, you know, wide concourse environments. The doggo doesn't always know exactly where to go. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:46] Speaker A: And so I would very often require a sighted assistance and I'd wait around for the sighted assistant to show up. And it's London and it's cold and it's raining. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:57] Speaker A: Right. I think that experience is probably one of the experiences that sort of started pushing me in that direction of, hey, there's got to be other ways that we can deal with this. And thankfully, since then, there are many other ways that we can deal with this. [00:13:15] Speaker B: You're tuned to KfAI, 90.3 FM, Minneapolis, and kfai.org dot. This is disability and progress, and we're speaking with Amos Miller. Amos is the CEO and founder of Glidance, and we are speaking about his product called Glide. And let's start out, Amos. I want to have you first describe the product glide, because it's an interesting looking product. So can you describe what it looks like to anybody who maybe would be just listening and not have ever seen it? [00:13:52] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Glide is designed to be a viable primary mobility aid, and I mean that in every sense of the word. So it's not something that you wear over your head or wear around your body. It is basically a long handle with a pair of wheels at the bottom. You hold the handle in a similar way to how you'd hold the harness of a guide dog or maybe the elbow of a friend. The handle extends at 45 degrees to the ground, and it rests on those two wheels. The wheels are probably, let's say you're holding it in your right hand so that your hand will be at your waist level and the wheels will be about two and a half feet in front of your right foot. [00:14:54] Speaker B: And how large are the diameter of the wheels? [00:14:58] Speaker A: The wheels are fairly large. We are currently looking at seven or eight inches, depending on. We will be finalizing that over there over the coming months. But really, the goal of that is that these are device that is very, very easy to move forward. The wheels are big so that they don't get stuck in grooves and don't get stuck on little things in the ground and can go on gravel easily. So we don't want something that has wheels that are too small that keep getting stuck. So really we want it to be something that is very light to move forward and very, very portable. And, yeah, so that's kind of the size of the wheels. And then the device, the handle extends from the center. There is a camera at the handle level. The camera looks forward so the device can see everything in front of it. There are a number of other sensors along the lower part of the device to detect near range obstacles and cliffs, as we call them, drops, dropped curbs, platform edges and so on. And so that's how the device looks and you hold on to the handle. Now, the wheels are not motorized, which is an interesting point for people to notice. The device doesn't pull you around. You nudge it forward yourself. So you determine the speed that you want to go. You want to go forward, you want to go back, you want to speed up, you feel nice and confident, pick up speed, you want to go. I'd say run up to you. It's, you determine the speed. You don't have to nudge any controls or anything. You just walk. And that's really at the center of this. We want you to just walk. [00:17:06] Speaker B: It almost reminds me of like a. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Kid'S push toy, the Fisher price popper thing. Yeah, it looks a little bit like that. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:16] Speaker A: We actually learned from one of the RNN's that we talked with that they actually use those in kindergarten with blind children sometimes to get them familiarized with their space. [00:17:32] Speaker B: And do the wheels have any grip? [00:17:35] Speaker A: They do, yes, absolutely. [00:17:38] Speaker B: And when. So it's used to, I mean, pushing it. [00:17:44] Speaker A: So you're starting to push it and the wheels begin to steer. You actually hear the wheels going like the glide keeps looking for the best path to take you on. So you're walking, the wheels begin to steer and you just follow it. Okay, so if you're walking along the sidewalk and there's a lamppost in the way, you just glide around that lamppost and you continue. [00:18:12] Speaker B: Much like a guide dog. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Much like a guide dog, exactly. It will look for the line and try to keep you on a safe line, avoiding obstacles, a certain steer. And then if, for example, you are approaching a curb, it will give you an indication on the handle with a haptic signal. So basically a buzz on the handle to say slow down, we're about to stop because you might be going at a pace. Yeah. And as you get to the curb edge, glide will apply the brakes. It actually has brakes in the wheel, so it will brake and then you'll be standing there and you'll decide when you want to cross the road. And in the same way it will approach. The same kind of curb approach applies to steps, approaching steps, approaching doors, approaching elevators. Because anytime that glide need, or even if glide, you know, if you get to a situation that there is no way to continue where glide needs to stop you and then evaluate with you what to do next. So a lot of the work that the team is doing is really on that interaction between you and the device to, you know, maximize the understanding of, of what's going on. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Okay, so I'm going to stop you because I have so many questions here. [00:19:45] Speaker A: I bet. [00:19:46] Speaker B: So it does, how far before the curb does it give you the haptic warning? [00:19:53] Speaker A: It depends how fast you're going. [00:19:56] Speaker B: And now there's so many truncated things like, you know, it's almost flat before you go from the sidewalk to the street. How does glide deal with that? [00:20:09] Speaker A: That's a great question. And that's really where the AI computer vision comes in, where we use the camera to detect objects, to detect certain features in the environment, to understand whether that's a potential target. And if it is, is that a target that you are headed to? And if it is, then guide you to that target and stop you at that target. So that's one of the really, I think, important capabilities that this kind of technology enable us to do is to really detect those, not only detect those objects, but also act on it, also enable you to then navigate to them in a safe way. So in many ways, I consider that as part of the, you know, a good approach to addressing the last mile issue when we, you know, we know the door is somewhere here, but where the hell is it? Right? Yeah, yeah. And if glide can see that door with a camera, then it can not only tell you it's there, but it will guide you to it. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Excellent. And I'm going to steer back to this street part again, because as you know, some streets are laid out very nicely straight across, others not so much, and you may have stops in the middle or some may be angled. How does glide deal with that? [00:21:56] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think, first of all, I mean, the world is complicated. Yeah. And I want to, it's, I think it's important that we really think about Glide not as a magical driver that will solve every single problem for us instantaneously, but more as a tool that we learn to use, that we learn to understand its capabilities and limitations, that we are always part of that decision making progress process. I mean, glide is not an autonomous vehicle. It's not a roomba. The benefit that glide has is that it has a really intelligent and capable being attached to it, which is called you the person. Yeah. So it's all about working together. And so I'm not dodging the question, but I want to clarify that. I want, when people kind of imagine the experience, it really is tool that you work with. Like, for example, I'll give you a very simple example, and then I'll come back to that crossing a complicated intersection, if I walk along a corridor and I know that there is a left turn with a cane and that you want to look for that thing with a cane, you will shoreline along the corridor, and when it opens up, you'll take that turn. Right? [00:23:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:39] Speaker A: With glide, you will almost try. You'll walk along that wall, you will indicate to glide that you want to take that turn. You can do that either by twisting the handle or by sort of guiding glide a little bit to the left so it's a little bit fit. So ten degrees, like to the wall or something, but it won't let you get to the door. It will keep you away from the door. And the moment you come across the corner, it will take that turn. Yeah. So you're working with the device and you're kind of working to do what you want to do with the device. So let's go back to the intersection. Example. Yeah. Glide will get you to the curb if it can spot the crossing. So the zebra lines or whatever indications there are on the road, it will follow those. If it can spot the up curb, it will take you to the up curb, even if it's not directly across. Yeah. If it can't spot any of them, it will let you know that I'll keep you straight, but I haven't got a destination. I'm going to. Yeah, so, and those are the kind of, you know, I don't want people to have. It will be very clear. And actually, we are adding sort of information in the handle, in the haptics and so on. It'll be very clear to you when glide is all excited and taking you somewhere versus. I'm not exactly sure where we're going, but I'll keep you safe. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Right. You know, much like my guide dog. [00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:25:23] Speaker B: I mean, so I'm curious to know about the learning curve. What do you think? An average learner, how long will it take them to learn glide? [00:25:41] Speaker A: I don't have. I'll share with you the data that I have. I think that that is one of the areas that is going to be really important for us as a community to start to understand. And we are already starting the dialogue with orientation and mobility instructors and other because, you know, glide is going to be a device that somebody who loses their sight due to glaucoma in their mid fifties, let's say, has never really interacted with the blindness world. They can go on Amazon and order it. And what happens then? You know. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:26:30] Speaker A: You know, like could, could we have an onboarding experience like that guides them to take the first walk around their block without a single orientation and mobility training? I don't know, but we have to start wrestling with that question because these devices are going to be more and more capable. So the data that I can share with you is that we, when people start to use glide in the conferences and user studies that we have been doing, within minutes they are walking. Yeah. Sometimes within seconds. Like it's very, very intuitive. You basically hold the handle and you start walking. Yeah. And you start to nudge the device left and right. You get a pretty clear feedback on what it's doing and you are on your way. And the device has some haptic symbols, but there's also voice that can reinforce with. [00:27:32] Speaker B: That was my next go to, so I know there's haptics. So talk a little bit about audio. What kind of feedback does it have with audio? [00:27:44] Speaker A: Voice. Yeah. So voice and sounds. The voice is going to be very useful for two, really for a number of things. One is to help people when they're still learning how to use the device and clarify what are the symbols. It can also be used for what we call scene understanding. When the device stopped, why did you stop? [00:28:18] Speaker B: Ah, so it would tell you. There's something you could tell you if. [00:28:23] Speaker A: You wanted it to. Yeah. Like it's. Sometimes people prefer, I think, you know, we have to think about voice as a medium to you be used sparingly. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:28:39] Speaker A: It's useful, but if it's too talkative or some people just want a silent experience, we also wanna. We are also working with folks in the deafblind community. They absolutely blown away by this, the potential that this device brings because it actually doesn't rely on voice. The main input is the wheels steering. The second one are the haptics and the third, additional extra information comes from voice. But if you really want glide to tell you everything that it's dealing with, what it's seeing, what objects it's seeing, then it can do that through voice. And that's also we also thinking about how that could be integrated with other beloved apps and technologies that we are all starting to use in the GPT and LLM world. And be my eyes and everyone. I think there's a lot of opportunity there as well that we're starting to also consider how we integrate with. But voice is an important aspect. But I also want to come back to the point, Sam. We want to build a really, a navigation aid, a mobility aid that people love that does a really great job as a mobility aid. And that's where our focus is and all these, we want to be able for people to integrate additional capabilities to it, like a scene description and so on. But we also want this to be a device that you don't have to be a tech lover and, you know, someone who travels the world, you know, if all you want to do is once a week, walk two blocks to visit your sister, and that's also fine. And glide should be. Should empower you to do that and you should feel completely empowered and love that experience going across, across those two. [00:30:55] Speaker B: How heavy is glide? [00:30:59] Speaker A: We are working at around five pounds weight. That's our target weight. I can't guarantee exactly, but really glide, just from a portability perspective, we are making sure that you can basically walk up to a car. There's a telescopic handle, so it folds up and you can sort of step into the car and put it between your legs. Exactly where you'd put your guide dog or. Yeah, also storable in overhead compartment on a bus or on a plane, or again, on the bus, on the floor next to you under the table if you're at a restaurant. So definitely collapsible and light to pick up. You also want to pick it up sometimes if you are walking with somebody else or if you are up and down stairs. So we want to make sure that this is a device that is easily, that is portable, easy to pick up. [00:32:08] Speaker B: And if you are doing stairs, does it have a way of indicating the number of them? [00:32:18] Speaker A: It could. If that was a requirement, I would say that, yeah. I mean, that's something that I haven't really thought about from that perspective. Glide doesn't really steer you on the steps. You can roll it down the steps. You might prefer to pick it up if you're going down the steps. So it's a bit like using the cane, but I mean, it has the cameras, it has the capabilities. So that one of the things that we are really building into the device is what we call over the air updates. So when you buy the device, it doesn't have to be connected to the Internet in order to be used all the time. But when it is connected to the Internet, it can and will receive updates. A lot like the way a Tesla vehicle works. And what that enables us is to continuously, once you purchase the device, you can continuously receive feature updates and improvements to the machine, learning and computer vision capabilities and learnings from other scenarios. So your example of a complicated intersection, maybe initially it won't identify that other side, but after a year of use and training, the next software update will enable it to do something that it couldn't do before. So that's something that people will benefit from. [00:34:03] Speaker B: You're tuned to kfai 90.3, fmmminneapolis and kfai.org dot. We're speaking with Amos Miller. Amos is a founder and CEO of Glidance. He's talking about the mobility aid they are producing called Glide. And Amos, you talk about walking with glide and how fast you can walk. And I'm a really fast paced walker. I have a very fast paced dog that I walk with. So can you run with it? [00:34:41] Speaker A: You could. [00:34:43] Speaker B: I imagine it's like, like I. I know we, we all do know we've had people faster than we should. And our instructor will say, no, I think. [00:34:52] Speaker A: I think, yeah, it's definitely designed for speed. I don't. I'm, I'm not. I wouldn't make a claim right now on how fast and in what conditions. Yeah. Like if you told me, can I run with it across union station in DC, I think that might be difficult with a lot of people in the way, but if you're on a track, maybe so. Yeah. But it's definitely designed, it's very responsive and it definitely looks ahead and plans a path. So I think running, or at least walking really fast, is definitely within the range of possibilities. I'd love to hear, Sam, when we talked a little bit about the interview before you started recording, you mentioned that you were blind yourself and you were very intrigued by when you heard about glide. And I was wondering if you would be willing to share a little bit about what piqued your interest and why. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Well, I have been both a cane and guide dog user, and I started using a guide dog later in life, so I was well equipped about knowing how to use a cane, but not that I liked it, just that I did it. But I admit that it's interesting because there's such a varied difference with mobility aids. If you just compare canes with guide dogs, you know, canes are just these dumb, inanimate objects that people can do what they will with them. And some people work expertly, and some people, not so much. And then you have the in between. And guide dogs are often. I mean, they're definitely much. They're smart, but they are the same. You know, people will do what they want. Some guide dogs work better than others, usually because of the user, but they run the other extent where guide dogs. What goes in must come out, guide dogs must eat. Guide dogs are often an argument of anybody who may have an ally. There's often problems with, especially if you're traveling in other countries, bringing your guide dog with you, even though they're excellent companions and they are amazing with what they do for you every day. And depending on what school you go to, you pay for the guide dog. And sometimes, if you're lucky and you have a dog that has very few problems, you pay, you know, the general expense of care and vet bills and shots and whatnot. If you're not so lucky, you can be caught with a pretty expensive mobility aid. And so this is an interesting thing where this is, I feel like it's speaking to both ends of the guide dog slash cane. And so I am wondering, it's always interesting to me with how this will fit in. And what do you see with both the guide dog and the cane industry with bringing the glide into this situation. [00:38:47] Speaker A: What do you think? [00:38:49] Speaker B: Well, I don't know. I think, you know, there are, what, millions of people who have a visual impairment. And I think that not all of them use a cane. Not all of them use a guide dog. Not all of them are independent by any means. But it will be interesting to see the niche that this fills and how many people will. I can imagine there'll be a lot of people who will ditch the cane. This seems much more exciting than the cane, the guide dog. It will be very interesting to see how many people come from a guide dog usage and choose this, because I can see both ends. I feel like I can see well. It's not the companion that your guide dog is. Your guide dog definitely has a character, a personality. But there are so many other things that it relieves you of that you don't have to get up when the guide dog's sick. There's very many things that are different, and there's a different sense of mobility. You know, when you go in, you can maybe communicate. I'm not sure how you communicate with the device, but. So if I go into a hotel, you know, there's often many choices. In the lobby, there's probably a counter where you check in. There are chairs, there might be a coffee shop, there might be, you know, various restaurants. Somewhere off of it, somewhere off of that lobby are elevators. So somehow, you know, when you're bringing your guide dog in, you indicate where you hope things are. If you don't know the terrain with this, it will be interesting if I can communicate with it to say, you know, I want to go to the check in counter, or I want to go directly to the elevators. [00:40:58] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah, 100%. I think that I agree with everything you said. I think it's going to be another tool, another option for people. I do envisage a future where we will see more people with sight loss and blindness, baby boomers out and about, and we will actually see them because they will be out and about. Like you say, not everybody has the benefit of getting a guide dog or training with a cane. Actually, many don't. So I envisage a future where we'll see on the street many more people. Some of them will be using canes, some will be using guide dogs, and I think many will be using some form of an intelligent aid, intelligent guide, like glide. Yeah, go ahead. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Can you talk a little bit about how you foresee this navigating inside? [00:42:12] Speaker A: Well, glide is designed to be agnostic to whether you are outdoors or indoors. Really uses a lot of its sensing capabilities of the environment. It's not dependent on gps, for example. [00:42:29] Speaker B: But if I want to find, like the hotel counter, let's say I go into a hotel. Let's just take that for an example. The counters are not, by any means, always straight ahead. How would the glide know where to go? [00:42:47] Speaker A: So that comes back to the object detection that we discussed in the beginning earlier. If the counter, or any indications that the direction to the counter exists in the line of sight of the camera, then glide can make you aware of it. And then you can decide either by saying, guide me to the, let's say, reception desk. It tells you that it's spotted the reception desk. You can acknowledge and say, yes, take me to the reception desk. [00:43:19] Speaker B: And are there buttons or anything on the handle that you can interact with glide? [00:43:28] Speaker A: There will be one or two buttons. We are still finalizing that. And there will be voice input as well. [00:43:37] Speaker B: Ah, okay. Okay. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:43:40] Speaker B: And how much, or will it, do you have plans for it to interact with the phone? [00:43:48] Speaker A: That's a topic of debate, I would say. [00:43:57] Speaker B: I can see both ways. I mean, not, not all blind people, excuse me, have smartphones. So. [00:44:03] Speaker A: That's right. [00:44:03] Speaker B: The most common way that these products now do interact is with a smartphone or Android platform. And. [00:44:14] Speaker A: So an app is not going to be required to operate glide. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah. The only needs for an app that we envisage at this stage have to do with getting the device online, giving you some content like information, instructions and tutorials and so forth, and updating the device software. That could also be done from a browser. It doesn't have to be done from an app. So really, at this stage, I don't believe that the app is going to be a required component in order to use glide. What we are working on, and that might be interesting to your listeners, is the, our direction of the way that we are working on the device is that if you use a different navigation app, like Lazarello or soundscape or Google Maps or so on, we are not planning to build you another navigation app. You use your navigation app and we'll figure out how glide can get the information from that app in order to guide you. [00:45:37] Speaker B: But the use of maps are not necessarily needed. [00:45:43] Speaker A: Again, it depends, but it's not necessarily needed. Exactly. I mean, if it's places that you know you can drive and glide will keep you safe and help you take the turns and cross the roads and do everything that you need to know. One thing that we are working on is you're able to map an environment yourself with glide so that you can, if there's a route that you, you're going to do regularly, you can put glide in a training mode so it can learn that route and then take you back on that route. And that, that could be very, very powerful for people who don't necessarily have their memory, the spatial memory required, or that it takes them a long time to learn a new route and that this can really get them on their feet almost instantaneously, whether that's indoors or outdoors. And then maps, we will work to make sure that you can navigate to destinations. I mean, we ultimately would like it to be that you can get into the airport and walk to your gate. Yeah, with glide. And glide will just have the roots and the map and take you there. And that would require some kind of collaboration with the airport. So in that scenario, there may be a need for an app, but maybe. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Voice input, as you say, and maybe voice input gate c 22. And then it would take you. Cool. [00:47:23] Speaker A: But all of those variations, I would say we will work with the community and with other organizations and bring them on board as we progress with the technology. They may not all be available on day one, but by purchasing the device and you enable the software updates over time, people will be able to get those capabilities. [00:47:52] Speaker B: And one of the interesting things I'm hoping that you take on, although I can see how it could be crazy, is when I'm standing in a line and I, how close am I to the previous person? This really came in interesting during the pandemic when the whole 6ft from people was like, how do you know you're 6ft from someone? Dogs don't measure that. And when you're in a line, you know, you don't always know when the next person is moved up. So that would be a very handy thing to be able to know. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, and that's fairly easy with glide, because glide, it can't take you because the route is blocked. So you'll just put the brake on and then you can keep the pressure on the device. A little bit of pressure. Yeah. And as soon as the person in front of you walks, the brakes will release and it'll release the wheels and you'll just do the next few steps. That should be fairly easy. [00:49:02] Speaker B: Is there a height, a plan of how high glide will see the objects? For instance, you talked about, you know, curbs and stairs, but what about head height things or things that might be chest height? [00:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it will see overhead obstacles and chest height, both with the camera. And we also have a sensor that points diagonally upwards from the handle so it can spot overheads. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't. We'll have to make sure what degree of, like, I don't know if it'll detect every branch and leaf. [00:49:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but no mobility aid really does. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Even people bump into those. I think our eyes are not detect, not designed to detect obstacles at that level, but, yeah, so that. But definitely overhead obstacles and chest level obstacles. It will. It has visibility of. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Well, I would like to give my pr and research person, Charlene, a chance if she wants to ask anything, because we both use mobility aids. And I think that this is a fascinating journey that you're on and it will be very interesting to see how this progresses. Charlene, did you have any questions? [00:50:41] Speaker A: Most of what I was wondering about you guys have talked about, so it's exciting. Thank you. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Would you want to talk a little bit about your kickoff or how you plan on doing that and how people can find out more on your website. [00:51:04] Speaker A: So I think the timing of this podcast is very, is wonderful because in a few, but I would say within the next few weeks could be even sooner. We will be starting to take pre orders for the device. This is a pre orders that will be. There will be some time before the devices begin to ship and we'll provide all the information on the website. When people go to the pre orders, our website is glidance IO. I repeat, glidance IO gli d a n c e IO, where you can find all information where we'll also be putting up the pricing and the really attractive discounts that people who pre order the device would be entitled to. [00:52:13] Speaker B: What about if someone's not sure, can they try out and see if they like it? [00:52:21] Speaker A: I would say yes, but it will take time before we have devices for people to try out, have to pre order at this stage. You can wait until we get to the stage that we have devices for people to try out. And we recognize that for a lot of people, that's going to be an important factor. We are not quite at the stage that we are ready to do that. [00:52:52] Speaker B: But presumably the people who are pre ordering are going to get a very, a pretty good deal for being the ones to step out and indicate that they are, they, they believe in their using the product. [00:53:08] Speaker A: That's right. Discounts, and they'll be first in line to receive the devices when they start to ship. So, and this is important, I want to sort of kind of, as a general point, being a member of the community and a tech lover, and I think this is a very, very important development that the community, the community is very excited about this. But I don't want to understate the level of investment that needs to go into developing a device like this. And the investment and the partnerships and the. It's a work of a village. And part of the reason for taking pre orders is really for the community and for people who really believe in what this is and the value that it can bring, to really demonstrate it so that we can demonstrate it to investors also to help finance the development of the product. It's a significant endeavor. It's going really well. I am really, like I said earlier, I couldn't be more grateful for the team that has assembled around Glydens to make this happen. And pre orders are part and parcel of that. And we're really excited to be at this stage, we can start to offer people to pre order and of course, people who pre order and others. We hold monthly Zoom calls for people to join us to talk about the device, to ask questions, to discuss some of the questions that come up and figure out how as a community, we want to deal with them. So this is all part of us working with the community and engaging. And we encourage people to go on our website and register anyway. And you don't have to pre order if you don't feel quite ready for it. Just register and be part of the experience. And if you are ready to pre order, you can press the button and do so. [00:55:29] Speaker B: So from the time that one pre orders, when would you think the product might be available? That's always a dangerous question, I realize. [00:55:41] Speaker A: It's not that it's dangerous, it's more about the. I mean, I would say we. Okay. What I would urge is for people to go onto the website and see what we say because we are recording it a little bit earlier from the date and I want to make sure that I don't say one thing in the website. [00:56:06] Speaker B: Okay. So go to Glydance IO g l I d a n c e IO and check out what the date is given. This is kFai, 90.3 FM, Minneapolis and kfai.org. This is disability in progress. We are speaking with Amos Miller from glidance, talking about his mobility device, glide. Amos, we are going to need to wrap it up, but I want to see if there's any last minute things you'd like to educate us on that I missed. [00:56:41] Speaker A: I just want to say, Sam, thank you for having me on the. On the call. I think that this is, for me personally, has been an incredible experience to work on, to work on something like this with the community and really understand a. That there is. That there is a need. That there is definitely a need for another form of mobility aid. It's not a guide dog and it's not a cane. It's something different. It adds to our tool set and will bring us independence. And I think it will bring independence and the ability to get around to a lot of people who today don't benefit from that. And it's a privilege to be working on this and to be engaged with the community to do so. So I really appreciate the conversation. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Do we have. I don't want to have to. Obviously, I don't want to pin you down, but do we have some kind of price point that you're thinking of that the person will pay between x and x? [00:58:02] Speaker A: So the main guideline I currently provide is that we are looking to price a device along the lines of what it costs to own a cell phone. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Ah, okay. [00:58:13] Speaker A: And we will be more precise about that on the website as the pre order, pre orders start. But that's the range. So it's not Netflix type pricing, but it's also not a $10,000 device that nobody can afford. I think it's very important for us and something that we've really have been very conscious of about in the development of the device to make sure that this is something that will be affordable by hopefully most who would like to have it. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Amos, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with us. I really appreciate it and I for one, look forward to seeing this wonderful product. So congratulations on taking the step to do it and having the stamina to do it and the know how. And thank you. [00:59:14] Speaker A: Thank you for the conversation. Sam. Thank you. [00:59:18] Speaker B: You've been listening to disability on progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about discussions on disability topics. The views expressed on this show are not necessarily those of KFAI or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of your show. Thanks so much for tuning in. We've been speaking with Amos Miller, CEO and founder of Glidance, who was talking about the mobility aid glide Charlene Dahl as my research engineer and pr person. Miguel was my engineer today and erin is my podcaster. If you'd like to be involved in knowing what is coming up and playing on future shows, you can email me at disability and progress all written [email protected]. That's disability and [email protected]. Thanks so much for listening. Goodbye.