Disability and Progress-May, 2, 2024-Audio Description Training

[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI.org. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Greetings and thank you for joining disability and progress on this May 2, 2024, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Charlene Dahl is my pr and research person. Hello, Charlene. [00:01:16] Speaker C: Good evening, everyone. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Erin is my podcaster. Hello, Aaron. I like to say hello to him because he's so far away, he can't say hello back. Ha ha. Anyway, just kidding. Anyway, thank you, Aaron. Tonight we are speaking, speaking with two people. We are speaking with John Scallon, who is retired and has his hands into many things. Hello, John. [00:01:42] Speaker D: Good evening. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Oh, boy. You sound like you should have stayed home. It's good thing you did. And we're also speaking to Celia Hughes. Celia is an executive director of art Sparks, Texas. That was formerly VSA. I know that. I know those people. Hi, Celia. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Hi there, Sam. How are you? [00:02:05] Speaker B: Good. Thanks so much for coming on. I do have questions, but they need to wait. Sorry. So tonight we're going to be talking about audio description, certification, and all sorts of things dealing with audio description and captioning. And I'm not sure how much these guys know about ASL, but I'll certainly inquire, and they'll see. They'll probably tell me what they do know. So let's start out, if you would, by each of you giving me just a little bit of a history about yourselves and how you got where you are now. [00:02:41] Speaker A: All right, John, do you want to go first? [00:02:44] Speaker D: All ladies first. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Taking the easy way out. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Taking the easy way out. So, I'm Celia Hughes. I'm the executive director of artsmark, Texas, as Sam mentioned, located in Austin. I have been doing audio description now for over 20 years in Austin and actually around the country. And I'm excited about coming up to Minneapolis in just a couple of weeks to do two audio description trainings. [00:03:16] Speaker B: We will get to that one at. [00:03:17] Speaker A: The theater in the round and one at Minnesota fringe office. I was up in Minnesota a number of years ago, and I have to say that John kindly waited until it was warmer to bring me back because we were in. [00:03:36] Speaker B: You didn't like our igloo ish winter? [00:03:40] Speaker A: Well, I'm from upstate New York, up in the Adirondack Mountains, so I know the cold and I know ice, but I, I live in Texas now, and we don't get that too often. [00:03:51] Speaker B: I'm told it doesn't take too long to acclimate to these warm climates, and then you just can't hack it with the big. [00:04:00] Speaker A: That's absolutely true. It's absolutely true. You know, everybody says there's no truth to the fact that you, that you can't acclimatize, but it really, you do. You get used to being hot and then your body doesn't want to be cold. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Exactly. Well, I don't know what my excuse is because I'm still not used to being cold, and I've been here for a long time and I want to be hot. But, hey, the people, you know, it's the people that keep me here. I'm sure it must be people and the politics and all that good stuff. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We won't go into politics because I live in Texas, so we'll get that off the table. That's true. [00:04:42] Speaker B: See, there's no one who will probably hunt me down after this program but you now, they might. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Well, I'm not so sure how many people from Texas are listening. So there you have that. [00:04:54] Speaker B: We have tons. [00:04:55] Speaker A: But, yeah, I'm delighted to be on the show. I actually have a community radio show in Austin called the Art Spark TX radio hour, where we talk about all things arts and disability. So. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Cool. Cool. [00:05:10] Speaker A: I'm right at home here talking with you, and I can see you in your little studio, and that's. That's terrific. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Excellent. All right, John, you can run, but you cannot hide. Let's go. [00:05:22] Speaker D: Well, let's see. I'll try to avoid the coughing this evening, but, yeah, I'm mainly into the accessibility and audio description and so on because I worked for VSA Minnesota for about 20 years. And of course, we did a lot of work with artists with disabilities, with organizations that wanted to be more accessible. We were fortunate to be able to award grants to artists and to organizations. We gave away a lot of money and a lot of good accessibility stuff happened. And then along the way, we developed a calendar that was publicizing accessible arts like shows that are shows and events that are audio described ASL interpreted, captioned, sensory friendly, or that feature disability topics or presentations by artists with disabilities. When VSA closed in 2019, all of our programs were taken over by other nonprofits, and the calendar went to the Minnesota Access alliance, which I'm still on the little steering committee for. So we still publicize that stuff, and that's, that's about it. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Now, not all VSA is closed, right? [00:06:47] Speaker A: Or did they all change their names and from 2019 on? Some before that and some did close. They didn't. Some of them didn't do it as gracefully as BSA Minnesota in terms of making sure that their programs lived on. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. We tried really hard to do that. [00:07:09] Speaker A: They've changed their names, and so they exist in different kinds of forms across the country. Now. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Excellent. Audio description is our main topic tonight. But before that, you know, I think sometimes people who aren't as familiar with it because you. You got to choose to have it. We'll say audio what? So there's audio description, asl and captioning. I was wondering if any of you would be willing to give the definitions of each one so people know. [00:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm happy to do that. So, audio description is basically the verbal translation of visual information for people who are blind or visually impaired. And so that is a service that is not often seen, which is why it's so little known, because the describer is sitting in a booth at the top of, you know, at the back of the theater or, you know, somewhere no one else in the audience is seeing that individual. And also, it's. It's only being used by people who have little receivers, and so they're. They're hearing it through a receiver at which they pick up at the front desk or wherever they get it, and same at the movies. Whereas captioning, of course, everyone in the audience sees because that's either being displayed on an Led board, which we're familiar with. It has lines, red letters, and two or three lines of captioning, or it's up above the stage or off to the side or sometimes on a television monitor. ANd that is actually just broadcasting, portraying the words that are being said. And so someone is. Has programmed those words into a software program, and then they're feeding those words into a projector or into whatever the. Whatever the equipment is. And so that's being broadcast for everyone in the audience to see now, sometimes. And what's happening are now it's being broadcast to people's cell phones, so they're actually holding a little phone in their hand, or it's being broadcast to a plexiglass plate that people are looking at the captions through that. And so maybe not everyone in the audience is seeing it, but what people are familiar with captions. They see them on their tv screens, that sort of thing. And ASL, American sign language is a language. And so that also is available for everyone to see because there are two or three interpreters that stand at the base of the stage or off to the side. However, it's been configured by the theater company, and they actually are translating the spoken language, again, into American Sign language, which is made up of hand gestures and facial, facial expressions. So there are three different, very, three very different services. They're delivered in very different ways, and they really serve three, I'm going to say, distinct populations because audio description is for people who are blind. Captioning is for people who have low, I mean, who have low hearing, hard of hearing. AsL is for people whose first language is american sign language. And so it's, it's translating that, that spoken language into a visual language, which is ASL. [00:11:28] Speaker B: It's very interesting to me because I think people think those who do know it, they may have stumbled on their tv, you know, in regards to that. There's often settings on your tv, and you may have stumbled upon that or one or all of them also, you know, you think of it in the theater settings. But that's not just it. Like you said there, they can do this for the movies. They can do this for circuses. What other uses have you seen them do? Audio description and ASL and captioning for. [00:12:05] Speaker A: I guess my most unique experience of myself doing audio description was for the Texas council of the blind did a boat ride on a lake here in Austin. And I described the boat ride. I described what we saw from, you know, what was on the shore, the different animals and birds that we saw, those kind of things. But people, they described the Rose parade. Most recently, a colleague of mine described the country music awards that were on tv. The presidential inauguration is described. [00:12:51] Speaker B: So it's all sorts of things. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Kinds of things. All kinds of things. Anything where there's some visual information can definitely be described, you know? [00:13:01] Speaker B: Exactly. I know that we're going to talk about the audio description training that's going to be happening. I'm wondering, can you talk about what goes into training an audio describer and how long does it take? [00:13:22] Speaker A: Well, the training can take anywhere from two to three days, maybe four days, depending on how much time you're spending in the actual training. But a person can't really expect to be a really highly qualified describer just after training. There has to be some practice. There has to be some on the ground work because it is a skill. Everyone thinks, oh, I can tell you what that looks like, or I can tell you what's going on. But then when you start to actually look at information in the training, you learn how to look at things through a different lens. You're not really, you're watching it to see what kind of emotion is it bringing awake inside of me? What, what am I, you know, what am I feeling about sorry. My cat just pulled my ear plugs out of my ears. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Leave it to the cats. I know. I have three of them. They do goofy things all the time. [00:14:36] Speaker A: I know. She wanted more attention. Sorry about that. So basically, it's training people how to look at things, to observe things differently, and then to analyze what you've observed with the larger picture. So let's say you're describing a play. So it's, what's the purpose of the play? What's the purpose of the scene, what is happening, what's going to happen in the next scene or the next act that I have to foreshadow, that I have to provide this information upfront so that when it happens, my patron is fully expecting it or is surprised or right along with the rest of the patrons that are in the audience. And so then after you do that, after you observe and you analyze, then you have to say, okay, I've got all this information, but I don't have very much time to deliver this information because I can't talk when someone else is talking. I can't. What we say in theater, step on the actor's lines. And so I have to figure out, how am I going to say this in the most concise and vivid way possible to convey to my, to my person, to my listener what's going on so that they can stay up and really understand what's happening with the play and enjoy it and make it an enjoyable experience. [00:16:11] Speaker B: So being certified, what does that mean exactly, and what does that give you? [00:16:17] Speaker A: Well, we don't have a certification right now. We have been working on one. Now I'm on, I'm on a committee. It's called the SME subject Matter expert committee. There is a group of us from around the country and one individual from Canada that have been working, have been meeting every Monday for four and a half years to write standards. And so what we're hoping the standards were out for review. We are now reviewing all of the comments that we got and going back into what we've written to revise and adjust based on the, the comments that we received. And then we will, there will be a test that people will, describers will take and become certified. And what that does, we're hoping, is that people, employers will then have confidence that the describer that they're hiring at least has the basic knowledge and understanding of what audio description is and what constitutes a high quality description. And so what we think will happen, and we've heard this from the industry, is that the federal government that hires a lot of describers, they will begin to require certified describers. Describers that are certified. Now, this is several years down the road, so anyone who is listening, don't panic. But, and then also, we've heard from the broadcast industry, television and films that they would like to see some sort of a certification. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Yes, I've heard a lot of different levels of describers. [00:18:19] Speaker A: So many people think, oh, I can do that. And then, and then they don't do it well. And bad description, which can take many forms. One of the most common is that somebody just talks all over the content, and so you can't hear the film because you've got somebody telling you everything. And the other thing is they try to tell you what you should think about what you're looking at. And that's not the describer's job. They're not supposed to tell anybody what to think about it or what to feel about it. They're just supposed to say, this is what I see. This is what's happening. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Can you give me an example of, give me an example of a bad, like one, a bad line and then a good line. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Okay, you put me on the spot here. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Like a bad line would be, you know, if you're, you're watching a film and someone is upset about something, and the describer says, they're very upset and they're, you know, and they're, and they're, I can't now, you know, just telling somebody, instead of just saying, this person is crying or this person storms out of the room to give you the visual effect, they're telling you that how to feel about this. This person seems unnaturally upset about this and is really carrying on, you know, and so it gives more, more information than is necessary. And if the actor is doing their job and the describer is doing their job, then you should be able to figure out, oh, well, he's really upset, or, you know, he, he stormed out of the room, so he's really mad about something, you know, rather than me have to tell, tell you that, you. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Know, audio description's been around for quite a while. Why has it taken so long to do standards? [00:20:31] Speaker A: We've always had guidelines. I mean, you know, I've been doing training for a long time, and we've always had guidelines. We've always said, say what you see. Don't be judgmental, don't be opinionated. Be organized. Start from the general work to the specific. We've always had those kind of principles and guidelines, but we've never had any kind of a certification process. And so, and it's taken us a long time to arrive at what these certification standards would be, and they really are just a more, a more defined explanation of what the guidelines and principles have always been. [00:21:31] Speaker B: You know, are there, like, what might, are there any changes that have happened in the last 20 years to the standards of audio description? [00:21:43] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I shouldn't say changes to the standards, but there's been changes in the delivery and, you know, 20 years actually more than that because audio description came in the eighties, which, you know, I hate to think how many years ago that was. And, you know, and we've changed. I mean, when audio description first came around, we didn't have, you know, text and, you know, and all the social media streaming, and we didn't have all of that. And we didn't have, well, we probably had video games, but we didn't have them to the level that we have now. And so there's so much more opportunities for people to be engaged, and there are so many more opportunities for people who are blind to be engaged and so, so many more reasons why access to visual information is so important. And so description has been, you know, really trying to keep up with that in terms of, you know, I have, I have people who are very much in the, in the old school just, just say what you see. Don't tell me anything else. So don't tell me he's mad. Tell me what you see that, you know, makes you feel that way. And I'm like, I don't have the time to do that sometimes. And then, but then for other friends who are blind will say, don't make me work so hard. You know, if he's mad, just tell me he's mad. Don't, you know, don't give me 15 different adjectives that I have to find to figure out in my brain while I'm also listening to the, to the show. And, you know, and so there's a lot of, you know, now we're talking about enhanced description, which they're doing a lot in museums with artwork and stuff like that where they're actually adding sound effects. They're bringing in music. They're bringing in sense to try to enhance the experience and enhance the audio description. And we also now have extended audio description, mostly in educational arenas where the film is actually stopped and visual information is dropped in and described so that the student can better comprehend or understand what's on the screen, what's on the slide what the formula is, that sort of thing. All of this was not even thought about when audio description first came into being. To me, it's very, very exciting because there are so many opportunities and people who are blind are demanding for it to get, for audio description to change with the times to, you know, to try to figure out how do you provide this information to people in a more streamlined fashion. And, you know, and I'm not an engineer. I'm not a software designer. I don't know how to do any of that. But I do know how to describe, and I do know how to look at something and try to make it as. Make my description as engaging and understandable as possible. [00:25:20] Speaker B: I think I do. I could see a point where some people will say, you know, just tell me how he's feeling or she's feeling. But I also feel that that endangers you to being subject to that person's opinion, and I would like to formulate my own, thank you very much. [00:25:38] Speaker A: That's what our basic, one of our basic principles are. Don't be opinionated. Yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Something also that I hear so much. You know, I was told that you're not supposed to make judgment on how someone looks like. You wouldn't say a beautiful girl just walked in the room or a pretty girl walked up to the handsome, whatever, man. But I hear that all the time, and I feel like that is kind of in the eye of the beholder. Right? Or, I mean, I'm sure there is some kind of set value that some people think, okay, these are kind of some standards that make somebody pretty or beautiful or whatever. But I always felt like that should be what I think, not what you think. [00:26:25] Speaker A: And you're absolutely right. And that's one of the reasons why we are really pushing for certification standards, because, you know, a beautiful beauty is in the, you just describe what that person looks like and then you, as the listener, decide what you think that person is. That person. Beautiful, pretty or not. And John has his hand raised. [00:26:50] Speaker B: So I think John wants to say, speak out, John. Go ahead. [00:26:56] Speaker D: I was just thinking that one of the changes that I've noticed in recent years for audio description is that some people at meetings will go around the room and, you know, as they're introducing themselves, particularly if there's somebody blind in the room, they will describe a little bit of what they look like. And of course, nobody's trained in that, but they do the best they can. And also on websites and in emails, I'm seeing more visual description of images that we see people are supposed to put that information in what's called an alt tag so that, you know, like, when you're looking at something online, Sam, you'll be able to see what that image actually is instead of a black hole, but they're actually describing it, too. [00:27:45] Speaker B: And that's true. That's true. I do see that. I don't, you know, I'm sorry. I know I have been a little bit ambivalent about the whole describe myself in the meeting thing because I guess as a person, like, I don't actually always care what you look like, the truth be told. I really don't care. I mean, there's some times where I might be curious if I hear a voice and I wonder, oh, I wonder if that person's good looking or something. But in general, like, I don't need to hear what six people around the table are wearing. And I know that's the in thing to do, and a lot of people do it and they seem to have fun doing it. So I've been just tolerating it, but I don't like to do it myself. Like, I, I'm like, you guys can see. I don't, I don't need to explain. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Well, it's very refreshing to hear you say that because, you know, I think, you know, I think that it's just a sighted, it's kind of ableist to me that here I am describing what I look like and every person, you're not the first person who is blind who has said to me, I don't like that. And when I try to say that in a group, people think that I am, you know, that I am anti blind. And I'm like, no, who cares what I look like, you know? And when I talk to people who are blind, they say, tell me something about yourself. Then if you're going to describe yourself, tell me something that I will understand. [00:29:27] Speaker B: A little bit more about. I'd rather know something about you than that you have curly hair, like, okay, so, Charlene, what are your feelings on this? [00:29:37] Speaker C: I agree. I think I want to know what you're thinking about in this meeting. I don't need to know what you wore today. [00:29:47] Speaker B: Right. And, or if you didn't wear today. There's always that. [00:29:53] Speaker A: It's like John's room right now. He's, I'm really intrigued with where he is. I can't tell if he's in a, if he's in like a room that has, he's in a room that has many shelves and I don't know if there's different colored papers, those on the bookshelves. [00:30:11] Speaker B: John lives in a very interesting house, so he's got a ton of built in bookshelves, which I find really cool, but. And so I can for. So let's take something like that. Let's say somebody is in a unique setting, and I think it's okay to bring that up and say, hey, so and so has a really unique setting. But then I would say, are you interested in knowing what it looks like? And that, that's great. Then you can yay or nay, and hopefully no one's offended that you don't want to know what they look, you know, their setting is. Or maybe they're really interested, but I don't think it should be. I feel like kind of. It's gotten to be a forced thing and. [00:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, I do think that. And I do think that it's. Well, you know, if I'm in a meeting and I. Nine times out of ten, I forget to do it, and then people look at me differently, you know, it's like, well, why are you not doing this? And I'm like, well, because I forgot. Because it's not important. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. [00:31:20] Speaker A: But, yeah, so it's. It's become this. It's become this again, this thing that people do that so they feel good about themselves. Well, that's not the, you know. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Well, in here you're trying to. I feel like I'm going to go off on a tangent. Sorry, but you're trying not to judge, like, body image and body figures and whatever. Whatever. But you're just putting that in my brain so I can judge you. So, like, who cares? I should judge you on what you. You know what I mean? I want to judge you on the content of what you say and. And not necessarily, like, how thin you are or if you're not, or if, you know, whatever. [00:32:03] Speaker A: Well, I have to share a funny story. Years and years ago, I had a theater company that I was working with, Terry Galloway. I don't know if you know Terry. She's a deaf performance artist. And so we were all sitting around the table. Everyone in the company had a disability, and we had two women who were participating who was blind, and one of them had curly, curly shoulder length black hair, but she had this white streak in the. At the front, at the crown of her head that was maybe about an inch wide and went back about three inches, you know, which was beautiful, you know, and we didn't, nobody thought. We thought it was all their. Because she wanted it to be there. Right. Because a lot of people do that. They'll bleach a little streak in their hair and stuff. So we got this thing that, well, we needed to describe everybody because we knew what everybody looked like, but Diana and Belinda didn't. So we had everybody describe the person next to them. So this one person described Diane, and they said, you know, you've got jet black curly hair with a white streak. Well, she didn't say anything. She just took all that in. But the next day when she came to the rehearsal, she had dyed it black. [00:33:30] Speaker B: She didn't know. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Oh, she was so mad. No one told her. No one told me that I had this white streak in my hair. My family ever told me. She said, I went home and yelled at everybody. [00:33:45] Speaker B: I can totally understand. I totally, it's like they betrayed me. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. So beware, beware your descriptions when you're talking about someone else. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Exactly. Now, Charlene, you had a question about something. Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker C: It seems like there's fewer describers. Is there any reason for that? [00:34:13] Speaker A: Are you talking about in Minneapolis and in the twin city area? [00:34:19] Speaker C: Well, that, and I don't know. Is it the same in other parts of the country? [00:34:27] Speaker A: Well, I don't know if there's, in terms of around the country, there are more describers. I've been hosting a bimonthly conversation on audio describing audio description. And I've been hearing from describers where I never thought there were describers. So there are quite a few describers out there. But I think what, there are only a few that are, that are doing the work that's more in the public, that's doing, like the theater, you know, the national movies and that sort of thing, because only one or two companies manage all of that. So they have their stable of describers that they, or voices, narrators that they work with. And so it seems like there's only a few, and there are actually quite a few. But John can speak to what's happening in the Twin City areas. [00:35:23] Speaker D: Well, I know there have been a few who have retired who have, you know, they've done it long enough. And the original group of audio describers were trained at the Guthrie many years ago. Celia said, maybe in the eighties. And so they are retirement age and they want to do something else. Maybe. And in greater Minnesota, there are so few describers. So we in particular, wanted to do these trainings so that we could bolster the numbers in greater Minnesota. Because often, while audio describers do get paid in the cities, some theaters will train staff or volunteers to do it. And that's a great volunteer activity if you're good. And the place that is hosting one of the trainings, theater in the round, has had. They sent three trainees to one of the first trainings that we had, and those people have worked for, geez, almost 20 years, and now they're retired, so they need to replace them. So they've got a new batch of folks. So that's a little bit about Minnesota. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Is this a lucrative profession? [00:36:33] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:36:37] Speaker A: No, not yet. We're hoping that's one of the things that the certification will address. But it's still, you know, it's been around for a very long time, but it still is not as well used as captioning, of course, and in ASL interpretation. And again, I think it's because it's not visible, it's not something that people in the audience will see. And so it really relies on the theaters to do their work, advertising, and, you know, and it relies on the patrons to come and bring their friends and that sort of thing. It's not as, you know, we've been really working at audience development for a very long time and hoping that this certification and what's happening just in tv and in the movies, so much more audio description is being offered that people will become more aware of it and then come to expect it. [00:37:48] Speaker B: They still need to offer more. I think every tv station should have its stuff audio described. You know, Celia, as you say, you've done it for a number of years, but you've also said it's not something you just walk out of a training, and you are a pro. How long did it take you till you felt like you could handle most anything? [00:38:16] Speaker A: Oh, maybe like today. [00:38:21] Speaker B: No, really. I mean, you must have had some time. [00:38:26] Speaker A: So the first time I described a live play, I previewed it, I think, three times and worked on my notes, and I was terrified when I went in to describe it because it was a comedy, which I just laughed out loud at all the time because the actor was a very physical actor, and I didn't know how I was gonna be able to do that. I didn't know how I was gonna be able to control my own enjoyment and do my job. [00:39:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be hard. [00:39:05] Speaker A: But something came over me. I mean, I sat down and I had the microphone, and all of a sudden, I was just, you know, in a different zone, and nothing was funny, and I was just describing it and getting great enjoyment out of the fact that I could see the people that I was describing to laughing at what was funny. And I wasn't laughing. I wasn't telling them to laugh. I wasn't saying, this is a funny part now. So that gave me confidence that I was going to be able to do this. But the first movie I described to a group of family groups where it was the first time that the siblings were going to the movies together, and these were sighted and blind siblings was kung Fu Panda. And so I watched, I prepared for 30 hours for that movie because I had to figure out kung fu moves. I had to figure out how the different animals were doing kung fu moves. I had to figure all of that out, you know, and so, and that, that was my first movie. And I would say probably now there are still. There are still descriptions that I will take 20 to 30 hours to prepare. I've been describing Meow Wolf, their installations in Santa Fe and Las Vegas, and just recently here in Grapevine. And I don't know if you're familiar with Meow Wolf. They are a collective of really creative, wacky artists, and it's very immersive. And so I have spent hundreds of hours working on those descriptions to try to make them come alive. So. [00:41:15] Speaker B: And are these descriptions that you pass on, then, to other people, or do you keep them to yourself? And everyone's kind of unique. [00:41:24] Speaker A: They've taken the descriptions and they. For, for the, those three locations, and they've printed them into booklets because they're very, they have very much. I wanted them to go online so people could just download them and listen to them, but they're very concerned about people stealing their material and stuff like that. Right now, it relies on a sighted person to be with them to read the descriptions. So, but I have incorporated the story because each meow wolf has a story. So I've incorporated the story, and I've incorporated all different kinds of tactile things that, you know, so that the person who is blind has a really immersive, as much of an immersive experience as possible. And it, and they've printed them into these laminated booklets that are like, you know, 20 pages long with pictures and stuff like that. So, so it is, I guess that doesn't really answer your question. You know, it really depends on how much time you want to put into it and how, and how much of an art you really understand that this is. It's an art to be a good audio describer, I think, because you've really got to be able to see things differently. You've got to be able to explain them in really, um, lively, you know, words and descript, you know, descriptive words that, that kind of evoke an emotion in someone else or invoke a feeling. Like you said, don't tell me she's beautiful. Tell me what. What you see so that I can decide for myself that she's beautiful and that that's an art. That's not something that can be just, you know, learned in a two day training. It's something that you can understand and learn all of the principles, and you can. I can. I know at the end of each training who's going to be good and who is going to struggle because. Because there are people that just kind of understand it, and then there are people that don't understand it, you know, that might be able to learn it. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying that everybody's hope, everyone is hopeless, but, yeah, it's definitely takes a. It's an art and a skill that has to be developed. [00:44:00] Speaker B: So, speaking of an art and a skill, I believe you recently got to audio describe the eclipse. [00:44:07] Speaker A: Yes, I did. What was that like on our radio show on the Artspark, TX radio hour? [00:44:13] Speaker B: What was that like for you to be able to do that? [00:44:15] Speaker A: I was at the school for the blind here in Austin, and so I was able to. Sadly, it was overcast, but the clouds parted in time for me to actually see the full eclipse and to be able to describe what it was that I was seeing and be in the middle of all of these students from the school for the blind and get their experiences. It was also being they could look at it on a large screen tv because there was a telescope that was broadcasting it. And so it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Talk about where this training is going to be, when and does it cost? [00:45:09] Speaker A: So go ahead, John. You can know all of that. [00:45:14] Speaker D: We have two two day trainings. One is a Thursday Friday from nine to five, and the other is a Saturday Sunday. Both are in Minneapolis. The first one is at theater in the round in the West bank, and the second is at the Minnesota fringe office in northeast Minneapolis. So it'll give people who can't, you know, do something during the week the chance on the weekend. [00:45:37] Speaker A: What are the dates? [00:45:39] Speaker D: The dates are May 16 and 17th and then May 18 and 19th. So we can take advantage of Celia's time. Of course, knowing that you can't do it all in two days, we might just ask Celia to extend it to a two month training or something like that. We're up here until it gets hot. [00:45:56] Speaker B: There you go. [00:45:58] Speaker A: What I like to do whenever I go in for a training is I don't like to leave people stranded. So I'm always available to people who have gone through the trainings. I've done a lot of, you know, script supervision, working with people on their scripts, working with people, developing their language, that sort of thing. So there's. It isn't that I'm just, you know, I'm in and gone. I try to be available as much as possible, you know, however that works through Zoom now, that's so much easier. But, yeah, so a lot can get done in two days. A lot can get done. And then, and then if you've got a system where people can practice, we'll be talking about that. How do people practice? They really need to do description for patrons who are blind and get feedback. That's really critical to hear from the patrons about this work. This didn't work. I needed to know more about this. So John might be reaching out to the community to ask for some folks to come to the theater and give some feedback. So. [00:47:15] Speaker B: And how can people practice? How should they be practicing? [00:47:20] Speaker A: Well, you can watch tv and just describe what you see on the tv or, you know, if you're watching movies, you can describe what you see there. And then, you know, in the. In the various theaters, like in Minneapolis, if there's a booth, you know, people can go and preview, write their notes and then just sit up in the booth and practice and just, you know, practice doing the description. You can, like I said, you can get some volunteers if the theater is going to be working with this, to come in and see the show and listen to this description and then agree to visit with the page with the describer afterwards and give their feedback on what was good and what was not so good, what needed improvement. So there's different ways that a person can practice, and that's the best way to do it because saying it out loud is really, really important. Because I can write and I can think, oh, this is great. But as soon as I say it out loud, I'm like, oh, no, this is not good. This doesn't flow right out of my mouth, or this is way too long or whatever, you know? [00:48:37] Speaker B: So can people take this workshop online or do they need to be there. [00:48:43] Speaker A: If there is nothing online? Well, there's audio description associates does an in person online. So it's not like it's an online class that you just do on your own. You have to. You have to, you know, but they do it via Zoom. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:02] Speaker A: But we are not broadcasting this. I have been working on a training with one of my colleagues, Martin Wild, who is a describer in Chicago. And we are working on an online asynchronous class that people can do in their own time. They have to get it done within a two month period. And we're working on this mainly to help people understand and learn the basic skills and principles that they're going to be tested on for the certification. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Charlene, did you have any other questions? [00:49:48] Speaker C: No, I'm just overwhelmed. I'd kind of like to learn how to listen. [00:49:59] Speaker A: Well, if you're available either the 16th or 17th or the 18th or 19th, you're available. You're welcome to come to the workshop, and you don't have to come for the whole thing, but we'd love to have you there. [00:50:14] Speaker C: Okay. [00:50:16] Speaker B: All right. So give us the info on the workshop once more. [00:50:20] Speaker D: There are two dates. May 16 and 17th at theater in the round, or May 18 and 19th at the Minnesota Fringe office. The cost is $80, which, you know, once you start working, that'll be paid for in one gig, probably. The registration is on the Minnesota association of Community Theater's website, which, just short, briefly, is mn act.net. So it stands for Minnesota association of Community Theaters, mn act.net. And you can register there. [00:50:58] Speaker B: Excellent. Celia, I'm just curious. I know you said don't tell me how to feel when you're audio describing, but what are some other mistakes that audio describers tend to make? [00:51:16] Speaker A: They'll describe a sound, so they'll say the telephone rings or someone knocks on the door or, duh, those kind of things. They sometimes, you know, there's a lot of visual things that are going on, and so sometimes they'll miss a key element. By myself, I mean, I'm going to tell tales of myself the first time I described Hamilton, and I don't know. Have you, have you been able to go to Hamilton? [00:51:51] Speaker B: No. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Well, there's all kinds of visual dance. The whole thing is a dance as well as a rap. And during the duel, during the first duel, the actor, which is not Aaron Burr, it's the duel prior to that duel mimes that he shoots his gun, and one of the actresses walks across the stage carrying the bullet. And so it's all done in dance. So he shoots the gun, she carries the bullet across the stage, and then it enters the other person. She goes to the other person. Well, I totally missed that. I mean, I. Wow, that's kind of a big thing. But it wasn't until somebody talked about that iconic moment when she carries the bullet across the stage. And I'm like, what? [00:52:49] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. Yeah. So you really do have to be on, on your, on your toes, so to speak, even though you're probably sitting in your seat. [00:52:57] Speaker A: Yeah. You do have to be watching everything. And that's why you can't be, you can't get caught up in the, in the, in the, in the story, as it were. You have to be really watching what is happening. Like I say, I try to get people to begin to look at things, to observe things through a different lens where they're, instead of, instead of just enjoying it, saying, why am I enjoying it? What am I seeing that makes me feel this way? Why? You know, what am I seeing that is of importance to my appreciation of this? And so it's a much different way of observing. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Well, Celia and John, it's been great having you guys on. This is a great topic, and I think, I hope your instructions go well. And is there anything else you'd like to leave us with? [00:53:57] Speaker D: How much time do we have? [00:53:59] Speaker A: Well, about, well, John's doing workshops, I believe. Right, John? Besides the audio descriptions, I could just briefly pitch them. [00:54:09] Speaker D: One is, it's not a training, it's more of a workshop to discuss what the captioning options are in Minnesota, because there are some theaters doing it and many are not. And people just need to know how that's happening. And that will be at the Bloomington center for the Arts on Saturday, June 1, from ten to twelve noon. [00:54:33] Speaker B: And where can people go to find. [00:54:34] Speaker D: Out more about that, the same website, MN act.net dot, one of our community theaters, is hosting two workshops because of their experience with the Penguin Project, which involves young people with disabilities performing in the same musical with mentors, singing and saying the same roles. And they're going to talk about how that works and to see if some other theaters in Minnesota would be interested in taking on that challenge. And then they also have been doing a lot of work, including people with disabilities and seniors in their shows. So their workshops are Saturday, May 18 at Ramsey, Minnesota. And again, all that stuff is on MN act.net dot. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Well, thank you, John. [00:55:26] Speaker A: Are the young people, are they young people with disabilities in the Penguin project? [00:55:31] Speaker D: Yes. Yeah. [00:55:32] Speaker A: That's great. That's terrific. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Excellent. Thank you both for coming on. I really appreciate your time and a much needed discussed topic. So thank you. And come back when the certifications are out. I'd like to see, I'd like to talk about that and see how it all irons out. All right. [00:55:51] Speaker A: Happy to do that. Thank you for having me on. This was fun. [00:55:54] Speaker B: Thank you so much. And you've been listening to disability and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of KFI or its board of directors. We want to hear from you. So if you have suggestions, comments or even complaints, you can email [email protected]. If you want to be part of our email list to find out what's coming on each week, you can do the same. Disability and progressamjasmin.com tonight we were speaking about audio description and all those other kinds of trainings. We were speaking with John Scallon and Celia Hughes. And Celia was the director is a director for Art Spark, Texas, that was formerly VSA. This is KFAI, 90.3 FM, Minneapolis, and kFai.org. Fresh fruit is up next for listening. Good night. KPI.org.