Disability and Progress- May 22,2025-Goalball!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI.org. [00:00:14] Speaker B: This is disability in Progress. Thank you for joining me this week. We are speaking with a couple great people. We're going to speak with Joe and Zach, Joe Hamilton and Zach Bueller. Good evening, guys. Can I, can you hear me? [00:00:37] Speaker C: How's it going? Joe here. I can hear you. How you doing? [00:00:40] Speaker B: Excellent. Yeah, a little rough start. My apologies. So this week we're talking about goalball, a blind sport, and we're going to talk about what it is and how people play it. So thanks so much for joining. I really appreciate that. I want to start out by having you guys give me a little bit of a history on each of you and how you got into playing blind sports. Who wants to go first? And when you start out, just the first couple times, if you wouldn't mind saying this is Joe or this is Zach so people can get used to your voice. [00:01:18] Speaker C: No problem. I can start because my history probably a little bit longer than Zach's. This is Joe Hamilton. I was first introduced to adaptive sports, sports for low vision and blind athletes at a sports education camp in the great state of Michigan back in 1988. I was an elementary school kid and first discovered goalball as one of only two team sports at the time for blind and low vision athletes. And because I grew up with brothers who played basketball, I was addicted immediately to goalball as a team sport. [00:01:52] Speaker B: And how about you? [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, for me, so it actually I've been an athlete all my life playing, you know, played football, played basketball, played baseball, ran track, did all that until I lost my vision when I was. [00:02:08] Speaker B: 12. [00:02:11] Speaker A: And then kind of from there, you know, still tried to play basketball throughout high school and all that. And then actually the USA team was actually training in Fort Wayne, which was my hometown. And actually Joe himself was actually a big part in helping my game grow and helping me grow in the sport. So kind of ever since 2016, I've been absolutely addicted. Fort Wayne, I mean, the sport beat me up. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Fort Wayne where? Fort Wayne. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Fort Wayne, Indiana. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I want to make sure. Joe, I feel like I know you, but we'll talk later. [00:02:47] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. [00:02:48] Speaker B: I too played in goalball and attended a couple of those tournaments and they're a whole lot of fun. And I think, Zach, you got the right idea when you said the sport beat you up. It can get a little rough and it is, it is a. But it's great. I feel like it's great for getting you in shape. So let's talk about for those who don't know. And there's probably several people who are listening to this and they're thinking, what is going on? Goalball. So what is goalball? Can somebody give me a description of goalball and a little history on it? Who wants to do it? [00:03:29] Speaker C: This is Joe. And so goalball is very unique in the fact that it is actually not a existing sport that was adapted for blind and low vision participants. It was the original idea of some rehab therapists. They may not have been called that back at the time, but in late 1947, early 1948, in Europe, after World War II, they got together and designed this rehab tool for soldiers who had been blinded in the war. And so go ball is kind of a anomaly because it takes some European handball. It takes some volleyball elements as well. What they did was they took a 9 by 18 meter rectangles. Remember, these folks are in Europe, so they use meters, which is kind of weird. We're. We're feet people. So it's basically 30 by 60. 30ft wide, 60ft long. @ each end of the court is a goal that stands about 5ft tall and is the width of the entire court, which is again, like a volleyball measure. And then the goalball itself is a ball that weighs about two and a half pounds. It has sleigh bells inside. It doesn't dribble like a basketball, but if you throw it into the ground hard enough, it will bounce or skip. And so the game of goalball is played by two teams of three players using tactile markings, which is basically string laid down on the gym floor, and then tape down so that you can feel orientation lines with your hands and your feet. And then you also, of course, have the crossbar of the goal behind you to back up on. And so it's three on three, and you're bowling or bouncing, rolling or bouncing the ball back and forth in a volley style. No, no rules as to how hard you can throw it. You just have to make sure that it touches the floor at certain points in order to be a legal throw. And my team would be on defense while Zach's team is setting up their shot. They would throw the ball at us. We would use our bodies to defend as much of the goal line as we could. Remember, the goal line is 30ft wide, so all three players on your team are responsible for offense and defense. And so we would be trying to stop Zach from throwing the ball past us into our goal. Once we stop the ball, we would have 10 seconds to set up our own shot and throw it Back and so you play in a volley style with a 10 second possession clock for two 12 minute halves. And then of course the team that had scored the most goals after the 24 minutes is the winner of the game. [00:06:11] Speaker B: 12 minute halves. Did it used to be seven? [00:06:15] Speaker C: Indeed. Back in the, in the 90s when. [00:06:17] Speaker B: I first started playing, I was going to say when I played it was seven. What made them extended to 12? [00:06:23] Speaker C: Wow. Well, so the, you know, the, the game is played at the Paralympic level, so that's like the highest level you can reach. And in order to try and get more activity and athleticism in the game, they thought it would be good to modify the rules a little bit and also lengthen the game. So actually in my playing career I saw an increase from 7 minutes to 10 minutes and then again from 10 minutes to 12 minutes and halves. [00:06:52] Speaker B: So I want to just explain to the listeners, actually I want to step back just for a minute and say that I always think of a little bit of like hockey and soccer thrown into. How to describe it too, because you know, you're hurling not in the air, but you have to have it go along the floor, that ball down the court. But you, and, but you. And so you don't kick it. But it is, you know, you're, there's a lot of body put into that. And when I played, basically how it worked is you literally splayed yourself out on the floor. You stretched out to cover as much. You would dive to the floor and stretch out to cover as much of the area as you could where the ball was coming toward. Is that still what people are doing? [00:07:40] Speaker C: 100%. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:07:42] Speaker C: You know, three players each responsible for like 3 meters or 10ft of goal line. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:48] Speaker C: And give or take some, you know, changes in geometry, which, you know, is, gets into the strategy of the game. But you're doing some pre, what we say, pre snap, which means before the other team throws the ball. So some pre snap, motion yourself to set up, try to get as close to the ball as you can. And then once you hear the ball released, you try to decide if it's coming at you or anywhere in your 3 meter area. And then being low to the ground, either down on one knee or potentially down already on a hip, you're kind of attacking the path of the ball and trying to put your body in front of it so that it doesn't just go directly into your goal. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I know when I played we always had a fourth player on our team for a change out. And so I think a Lot of people. I don't know if a lot of people still do that where, you know, you have a fourth player to play. If you need to have a sub, somebody sub in. And then also I feel like if people think that, oh, 12 minutes, it's not really that bad each half, I will tell you that after, even after the seven minutes, you are sweating because you're getting up and down, up and down, up and down, and you're totally on the floor and you have to get back up to throw that ball or to go to. If you're a center, which I was, you're covering the entire front part of that area. And you. You trust that your wings are gonna back you up, but you're kind of still supposed to cover that whole area. So. Interesting that. It is interesting. I feel like. I feel like that has that whole 12 minute thing. Whew. I would. I'd have to gauge to see how much energy I had for that. I want to talk about apparel. So there are things that, when you're playing goalball that I know that I wore, but I want to go start with the blindfold. Is there anything special about the blindfolds that they require now? They are. Are they requiring still everyone to be blindfolded? [00:09:56] Speaker C: Of course. Yeah. So that's the one thing I guess I missed in the description that's okay. Is because of the different degrees. So, like, Zach has some functional vision, whereas I don't have any functional vision. And so in order to put us in the same peer group, we all wear an eye shade. And what they have done to provide for some additional protection, because as Sam said, you are on the floor and putting your body in front of the path of the ball. And as she also said, the ball's coming pretty fast. I know Zach and I could throw the ball close to 40 or sometimes over 40 miles an hour. And so there's like a nose guard on the I shape shade that kind of gives you a little protection. So that way, if your top arm, as you pursue the ball, is a little late or not in the right position, you do have some protection when the ball bounces off your dome, which sometimes happens. Everyone wears. Everyone does wear an eye shade, a blindfold, so that there is a level playing field no matter what. So that's what. It's actually kind of funny because we've been discussing how to present the game because a lot of times you hear, you know, that's a sport for the blind. So then people kind of disengage from it or they already don't really know blind people. And so we've been trying to tell people that it's a sport you play blindfolded and that the best players, you know, amazingly, are people who are blind or low vision. So it's a little different way to kind of bring the sport to the masses and try to connect them with whether they would be willing to attempt the challenge. Yeah, by being blindfolded while playing a game. [00:11:24] Speaker B: And when I, when I played, you wore like blackout goggles. I remember those. So you either blacked them out or you could tape the insides and have the. But no light could come through. So now you're saying it's a different eye shade that has a nose piece. [00:11:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So they've done it. They've taken like a kind of a malleable plastic mold and then lined it on the inside with foam so that it does give you some, like, soft protection. As the blindfold rests on your cheekbones and your eyebrows, they've crafted in that, that sort of nose piece. Couple of reasons for that. As you indicated, you're not supposed to have any light source reaching inside the blindfold. In fact, anyone who is putting on a blindfold and able to see light or is able to like see the lines on the floor, depending on, you know, the level of functional vision you have, you're actually, you know, not playing the game fairly. And so they took and put that nose piece on to help kind of block off anyone who has, like high functioning central vision that, you know, may have been allowing light in or again to wear the blindfold in a way that you could potentially use some of your functional vision to aid you in participating. [00:12:44] Speaker B: So I'm just going to talk about a couple things that I used to do and you tell me how it's changed. So when I dressed for the sport I had, you're tossing yourself about quite a bit and you are sliding along the floor and all sorts of stuff. So I wore elbow pads, knee pads, and I did have like fingerless gloves because I just liked having that. I don't know, it made my hands feel better. And then I wore like a hockey breezer of such, so when I dove to the floor, it didn't hurt my hips so much. Can you still do that. [00:13:32] Speaker C: Zach, if you want to tackle, but overall you are protecting yourself against the contact with the floor because in a 24 minute game, each team is, you know, getting 100 possessions. So not only are you standing up to throw the ball, not yourself 100 times, but your team 100 times. And then every time the opponent is throwing the ball back at you, you're making some move to the floor, whether it's to slide into position to back up one of your teammates or to cover some vacated space to try to attack the ball, to deflect it forward or out of bounds. So the pads that you're talking about are definitely all still encouraged to help protect yourself against the abuse that you get from the. From the floor. Zach, what do you wear? Do you wear anything additional to hip pads, elbow pads, and knee pads? [00:14:17] Speaker A: No, not really. That I can think of. Definitely. Like, my main ones are, like, my hip and elbow pads, like, knees. Sometimes, like, if I forget a knee pad, it's not the end of the world. But it definitely helps to, like, because, I mean, even, you know, just hopping up on a knee sometimes to get up and you're like, oh, that, you know, that kind of hurts. But I know some people that wear like a kind of like a chest protector almost. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Oh, I wore that, too. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Like they do in football. Yeah, I wore that, too. So you'll have some people with, like, the chest pad and stuff like that. I've seen some people with, like, kind of some thigh pads like they have in football. I also know a lot of people that started wearing shin guards a lot, too, because sometimes when you take a ball to the top of the ankle over and over and over again, it starts to get a little bruised. So. So can guards are starting to be a little more of a thing. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Can you wear the. The Breezer, the hockey? [00:15:11] Speaker A: I believe so. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Okay. I wasn't sure if they limited the. [00:15:15] Speaker C: The cutoff gloves is definitely a thing I've seen, you know, people wear to protect your wrists and hands from what we call floor burn. That's where you've made an aggressive play towards the ball, but you forgot to lift your hands up, and so it slides along and kind of gets that horrible hot sting to it. And then a lot of times, for players who aren't protecting their hands with gloves, what they are protecting is their fingers against the wear and tear from throwing the ball as hard as they can. And really trying to push through the ball does have some grip to it, and it can really tear up the fingertips. And so you'll see players put finger tape on and layer their fingertips to protect the wear and tear from. From throwing the ball. So, you know, pads are optional. Another thing we didn't mention, Sam and I, you know, keeping it a family show, but for guys, you know, we have some pretty essential equipment in the path of the ball. So, yeah, an athletic supporter is definitely something that would allow you to. To be more play with more reckless abandon. Right. The more you protect yourself against the floor and injuring some vital body parts, the more aggressive and more consistent you can be. Some players won't wear one thinking they're tough, but, you know, and when we get in our clubs and play with our groups, like, we love trying to, you know, single out, wear the important equipment. That's right. You didn't wear it. We're going to teach you why you need it. [00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah, so I did wear the. [00:16:38] Speaker A: That was actually the first thing that. My very first practice, like, I had showed up and I came back later that day, and that was the first thing Joe here actually told me to get. He's like, do you have an athletic supporter? Like, no, you should probably not come to practice. Good call. [00:16:54] Speaker B: I did wear the chest protector. It was a plastic thing that, like, for women, I mean, I'm sure some men want that too, but for women, you especially want that. I want to get into a little bit, guys, about there is, you know, people have kind of their essentials, I think of the places on the floor where you play, and we played where we had a center and two wings. And do you want to talk a little bit about that and how that function? Like who serves what function? [00:17:30] Speaker C: As Sam said, you're kind of lined up in a loose triangle in formation with each player having an orientation line. The sides called the wing lines, the center called the. The center hash. And that is, you know, again, just for orientation purposes. You're trying to make sure you're lined up facing the right direction using a lot of communication. And then the center, which is, you know, again, in front of the goal line about 10ft and directly in the center of the court, the wing players or perimeter players are on a orientation line that's 5ft in front of the goalball and on the sidelines. So the center is again, kind of right in the middle of the action, kind of your primary defender, because they are trying to cover their three meters. That's all right in the middle of the court. So they have more of an opportunity to have a defensive responsibility. Because every time the ball is thrown, whether it's right or left, you know, they are trying to put their body in the path of it. And then Zach is a wing. He maybe talk to you a little bit about the wing responsibilities. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Go ahead. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, so basically my goal is to have the center block everything. If they don't, I blame them. No Just kidding. [00:18:44] Speaker B: I've heard that one before. [00:18:45] Speaker C: Team sports, baby. [00:18:49] Speaker A: No, so, like, as a win, and definitely, like, I feel like as a win, I'm not as good as a defender as your center player is supposed to be. But at the same time, like, my mindset as a win is, you know, keep the ball out of our net no matter what. And so it's more about, you know, if a ball straight in front of you and thrown down your line, like straight, straight down in front of you, like, I'm not expecting my center to get to that. Like, that's all, that's all me. I need to be blocking that. But then when it comes to stuff that's going more towards the center as a win, like, my goal is to be backing them up as much as possible. We always kind of try to say we're trying to double team the ball. So we're always trying to have at least two people in the path of the ball kind of at the same time. But then also kind of as a win if it's going to my center, to the opposite win. Like, I'm trying to basically play backup and see if there's any tips that are coming up that I can try to scoop up. And basically, as long as I'm keeping it out of the net as a team, I think that that's our main goal, but just kind of always being ready. Goalball is such a sporadic, non forgiving sport that, you know, we're always trying to put ourselves in the best position for success at the right angle to be a good defense. So I think that that kind of goes for the. The center and the wing both have, have similar responsibilities, but very different at the same time. [00:20:24] Speaker C: My wings. Go ahead, Sam. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Sorry, I feel. No, that's okay. I feel like the wings are like they are more for the. They do more of the throwing. And so at least that's how it was on my team, where they are hungry for that ball. So you block, but you give them that ball so they can be prepared to, you know, hurl that down. [00:20:46] Speaker C: So we always had that same kind of reference point. And of course, the rules have, have changed some to encourage a little bit more offense in the game. But when you started to calculate the analytics and you started to look at like, who is blocking the highest percentage of balls because the center has no sideline to rely on. One of the things, you know, Zach is talking about, when the ball is coming straight at you, if you're playing on the wing or on the perimeter, there's a Sideline, you don't have to defend anything that goes wide of, you know, your net. And so you can be a little bit more patient, you can be a little bit more explosive as far as, like, oh, dang. I think that ball might be actually staying in bounds, but I was way over helping my center, and I got to, you know, really get after it towards the perimeter of the court. So where the center's, you know, job is so important is because they don't have the luxury of just deflecting the thing sideways and pushing out of bounds. They really got to make sure that they're either slowing it down to allow the wing to block it or blocking it themselves and not, of course, elevating the ball over that double team that Zach talked about, the center and the wing. So back in the day, center would block it, pass to the wing, the wing would throw it, and then we started looking at it go, wow. The center is only blocking maybe 5% more of the balls than the wings. And also, it's a little harder for our opponent to block balls that are being thrown out of the center third of the court because it's drastically changes the angles on defense. And so what you're finding now is, is that we're trying to target the center to take a specific number of reps in the game, because throwing is what's most fun. Everybody loves throwing. Not as many people love defense, which I think kind of, you know, set the good from great players apart is like, who's committed to both sides of the ball, being able to win games by making sure your opponent doesn't score as, you know, as an effective strategy as trying to just score more goals than your opponent. And we found, hey, the center needs to throw, you know, more than four or five times and a half to stay engaged in the game, to have more fun throwing the ball. And they're going to be really effective because that. That middle third, if you will, of the 9 meters changes the defensive. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:03] Speaker C: Angles to a point where it creates a lot of challenge. [00:23:05] Speaker B: So, right. [00:23:06] Speaker C: One of the things that, you know, the United States that we did as a group and Zach came in as a new player, which is a great benefit to him, was we sort of played positionless. We didn't have a right wing, a left wing, and a center as much as we put three guys on the court, and then we would let our defense be dictated by our offense. So if Zach picked up the ball on the right side of the court, he could walk all the way across. And as he passed the center, he would tell the center to roll to right wing. The center would then move out of that space, go to where Zach was first, collected the ball. So then Zach has that whole center of the court to throw from. And instead of creating sort of a disadvantage on defense or urgency on defense, where Zach would have to move 5 or 6 meters back to his original position, the right wing, he's able to just throw the ball as hard as he can and then step to the center tee and line up and fill that space. And so we really got to the point where guys were playing, you know, maybe three or four snaps at a position before the offensive player would rotate the defense to give themselves, you know, more open space to throw from and then less of a. Of an advantage for the other team by being disoriented on the court. [00:24:20] Speaker B: So goalball is a mutual sport. I feel like it's. It's women and men play in it. Explain the difference. There was, when I played, a difference between the women's team and the men's team. Even. Even though sometimes you could get women's teams that threw super fast or hard in general, they may throw fast, but they don't throw as hard as men's. But explain do they still use a different ball? [00:24:55] Speaker C: No, it's the same ball. [00:24:56] Speaker B: Same ball. [00:24:56] Speaker C: Okay. And, you know, and I think there was a proposal to, to do that, to make either a smaller or a touch lighter ball. And the, and the women of the world really pushed back on it and wanted to, you know, maintain the integrity of their, of their game. I think the two things I notice the diff. The biggest differences between the women's game and the men's game is that it's very possible sometimes in the women's game to have a singularly dominant defender. Like if you have a center with some great range who can, you know, cover their 3 meter responsibility and then some. They have a really good shot at impacting the success of their team in the men's game because again, the pace is elevated. As Sam said, the, you know, and this is, of course, you know, at, at some of the higher levels, either national or international type competitions. You know, if you have a really good defender in the men's game, typically they are defending their position or their three meters and then, you know, successfully helping back up plays. Like Zach said, if a ball gets tipped and is rolling towards the goal line, they can come in from, you know, their side of the court or from their position and try to stop it from going in. In the, in the for, for the women, if you have a really, you know, solid, singly, dominant defender, you can have a lot of success because it allows for your wings to, you know, as you were saying, singularly focus on offense. And, you know, of course, when the. Each team has, you know, maybe one really high level, really elite offensive player, and so it just, you know, the. They play a little closer to the ball. I noticed, like, in the women's game, you'll find the players playing more on the front line of the goalball court, the defensive area, to, you know, give themselves a chance to collaborate and to block the ball. [00:27:07] Speaker A: And. [00:27:07] Speaker C: And there are a couple of teams in the men's game who play close to the front line. But, you know, from. From my experience, and this is just, you know, my experience, I found a lot more success with our team when we actually dropped ourselves back to, you know, the wing line depth because again, the center is about 10ft in front of the goal line. [00:27:26] Speaker B: Wings are then if the ball noticed. Oh, go ahead. [00:27:30] Speaker C: About, you know, differences or facets of the women's game different than the men's? [00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the, the pace. But because of that, I think that that also allows a lot of differences. Like I've noticed, especially in the women's game, as I've, like, I haven't coached like, internationally, obviously, but like being at like a few of the USA women's team's practices and going to some domestic tournament tournaments and like coaching a little bit. Like, there is a kind of a different strategy, like from a coaching perspective and getting feedback from, from your coach to your athletes and athletes to coach, vice versa. Just because there are. There's less stoppages in the game because you're not necessarily having a ball blocked out or a ball blocked over. So it is just about, like, when you do get those stoppages, you know, you have to be pretty specific and kind of to the point and pick and choose and what kind of information you want to give and what's relevant to that time and what's not. And because, I mean, in the men's game, you know, we'll have a ball that gets blocked out or something like that, or a lot of. A lot of these guys because they're. They're throwing harder, you know, throwing out with a little less accuracy and stuff like that. So you'll have, you know, you'll have 10, 15 seconds to communicate with your players as a coach compared to like, some of the women's games where you might have you know, a half a second to. It might be, you know, a few minutes before you get to be able to communicate with your team. So I think that's kind of the biggest. The biggest one, just kind of strategizing. I think sometimes it can be more kind of on the. On the team, on the athletes themselves. [00:29:12] Speaker C: And one more thing, one more thing really quickly, too. I had a recent newcomer to the sport, and she was a college lacrosse player who, you know, experienced vision loss a little later after college and everything. And she had come to a few of our, you know, friendly kind of club sessions and would play with some of our younger, less experienced, you know, men players. And then, of course, she would then fill in and play in, say, her women's scrimmages. And she said one of the things that was really challenging to her and the transition between defending against the male thrower versus the female thrower is the level of focus. Because when, you know, a pace of ball coming at you from a male player, it's, you know, a little less time to react. And so you're just doing that. You're reacting. And then sometimes when, you know, less experienced player, woman player throws the ball, it's moving quite a bit more slowly. And so she's finding the challenge in trying to focus and stay in the moment and make sure that she doesn't distract herself. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:21] Speaker C: And make a mistake or move out of the way. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:25] Speaker C: So, yeah, that was definitely another thing that she had noticed just individually in her exposure to the game of goalball. [00:30:30] Speaker B: As a new player who qualifies to play goalball, must you have a visual impairment? [00:30:36] Speaker C: So if you're talking just the game itself, like in your community, absolutely not. It's a sport played blindfolded. If you're willing to put on a blindfold and play, then you are welcome. Now, if you're talking about the Paralympic path and being an athlete with a disability who's trying to make, you know, that. That dream a reality, then you would have to show 20 over 200 with correction to qualify as a person experiencing the disability at a level that you would be qualified to play in the Paralympic Games. [00:31:12] Speaker B: What kind of terrain is the sport usually played on? It's usually in a gym setup. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. So normally, like, domestically, even sometimes internationally, we'll play on, like, a basketball court, like a hardwood floor, something like that. When you get into international Paralympic level, not, not all international tournaments, but like world championships or Paralympics, we play on a synthetic rubber floor that's usually over like a hardwood or like a Suspended floor or something like that. I believe in Tokyo we played on the court that they had volleyball for the Olympics. So then they just put the, a synthetic rubber teraflex down. So it's a little softer than, you know, a hardwood floor. But I guess I don't really know what kind of floor to compare it to. Almost like a, almost like an indoor track type of floor is the best way I can probably describe it. A little harder than that though. A little. Not as thick. [00:32:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And without the, you know, ground rubber. So it is, it is a smooth synthetic surface. Teraflex is, it's a material all of itself, kind of similar to a little bit of like a scuffed up kind of roll out kitchen linoleum. It's got like that soft. You can kind of push your fingers into it and yeah, it's, it's this typically the floor used for Olympic volleyball. [00:32:37] Speaker B: I presume depending on the texture it does, it can affect how well you slide. [00:32:43] Speaker C: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And teraflex isn't real absorbent, so once you're out there and competing, you start to get a good lather. The sweat can kind of pool on the, on the surface and create some additional hazards as you're playing the game. Trying to make sure you don't slip in your own or your teammates perspiration. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Ew, that's so lovely. I love that talk about the referee. Every tournament I've been in has a ref. What's their job? What do they do? [00:33:17] Speaker A: So basically their job is to call like penalties and infractions. So like Joe said earlier, the ball has to contact two points, one before the high ball line in your team area and then one before the long ball line on the other side, which is the other team's high ball line. It has to contact before that line. So the refs are looking out for those penalties. A high ball and a long ball. They're looking out for basically anyone touching their eye shades, anything like that really. Any infractions that happen, noise, penalties, they don't really look out for those. Obviously they listen for those A little more illegal coaching, anything like that. If a coach is talking to a player after the quiet, please basically make sure that the game is going. Call stoppages, call goals, different things like that. Make sure the crowd stays quiet, make sure players are safe, make sure everyone's following the rules. [00:34:18] Speaker B: What happens, what happens when there's a disagreement between the ref or, and a player or a coach? Is there any ability to, you know, disagree with that? Or it is what I think. [00:34:35] Speaker C: I think you would find referees getting fed up with coaches around the world who are physically reacting because they can't verbally react when they're, when the game is live. But like physically reacting, throwing their hands up in the air or, or you know, like pretending like they're pulling their hair out because they feel like the referee didn't make a call, you know, for or against their team. And so what the. There's two officials each, each end of the FL on opposite sides. And basically what the officials do is they take the rectangle and they split it into two giant Ls. And so one referee will patrol their long stem of the L and call balls when they go out of bounds, would call particular penalties for and against the team that they're kind of observing. And then of course, when the ball crosses the boot of the L, the, the short part, that would be their responsibility to then blow the whistle and call a goal. The game is really for the referee. So anyone out there who's interested in becoming an official, you know, a lot of times you can, you know, get a travel and housing and lodging and food kind of covered and you go, nice, you know, ref 10 or 15 games in a, in a tournament on a weekend, the, you know, the opportunity to progress. And in goalball as an official, they have, you know, a pathway for you to get international exposure as well, where you would become like an internationally certified official that, you know, after a certain amount of time in the game, you then would qualify to be a referee at the high level event. Stack talked about the World Championships of Goalball or the Paralympic goalball tournament. [00:36:18] Speaker B: Talk about a coach's job. Does every team have a coach? Are they required to have a coach? What does a coach do? [00:36:26] Speaker C: Yeah, so internationally you, you, you know, prefer to have a coaching staff. Domestically, it isn't quite the same requirement just because, you know, clubs pop up and sometimes they have people who are willing to travel or to assist and sometimes they don't. And then of course, you know, what a coach's job is, is, you know, you sort of get down into the weeds philosophically. Me personally, as a player who has played goalball for, you know, three quarters of my life, what I found the most useful in a coach was for him just to give me the information that he's or she is seeing on the floor. What are the, what are some of the things the other team is doing that we might be able to take advantage of when we throw the ball at them? Where are we as we're communicating to each other on the court where we think our teammate, you know, threw the ball to. When the coach has an opportunity to speak, you know, letting us know if we're on point with that feedback to each other or if we need to sort of adjust because we're. We're giving sort of inaccurate feedback, and then, you know, to try to take some of the responsibilities from the players on the court, like, you know, not worrying about calling a timeout because you have somebody on the bench who's going to do that or when to make a substitution or who to sub in. As a player, you're on the court, and of course, like you said, Sam, you can have four or as many as six players on one team, three at a time play, and then you have a certain number of substitutions, the numbers four that you can make during live action. And at halftime, you can make substitutions of players that don't count towards your allotted subs. And so if you have a coach who's willing to handle that responsibility as well, when you're going to exchange players or sub players in and out just to allow for the players on the court to focus specifically on, you know, throwing and defending, you know, sometimes if you have a coach, when you have a practice, they're your official, so they are the one who's calling balls and strikes, as I say, that'll whistle you for penalties or call the goals when they score. So it's. It's really collaborative. There's no, you know, official role or job specifically of a coach in their duties, but definitely if you can effectively, you know, communicate, as Zach said, when the whistle blows, if a ball goes out of bounds or a goal is scored or there's a substitution or a timeout, during those times, the coach can communicate with the players on the court when the whistle blows to start play. And as long as the ball is being volleyed back and forth and staying in bounds and being blocked and thrown, coaches at the bench are not allowed to communicate with the players on the court. They have to remain silent during play. And so what kinds of plan or information can the coach relay during those stoppages in play? How much time is left or, you know, encouragement or, you know, hey, you guys, take a deep breath. You know, just different, different things to sort of help to keep everyone on the court in an even mental and emotional state. Because, you know, goalball is a very mental game. The more excited or bummed out you get, the more the game is going to take advantage of you. [00:39:35] Speaker B: You talk about goalball being a Paralympic sport. Just give a brief info about what the Paralympics is so people know we're. [00:39:48] Speaker C: Trying not to talk over each other. I think, Zach, you want to handle that one? You're the more recent star over here. [00:39:54] Speaker A: I can definitely try. Yeah. So the Paralympics is, we always call it the equivalent of the Olympics. So it's on the same level, it's on a parallel level Olympics. It's just for those of us with physical disabilities, so amputees, those in wheelchairs, you know, those are visual impairments, different things like that. So it's super cool to, you know, go around and really, you know, interact with these, these athletes and from other countries and even from your own country and different sports and stuff and like really learn about the sports and just how it's, it's been adapted even for, you know, outside of our sport. So that, that's always like really cool to see and just the turnout and support that, you know, we've had in just kind of seeing throughout the years. Paralympics is really just starting to, starting to get some traction, obviously, like when, when Joe here was first starting out, which also I want to mention was nine years before I was born. You know. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Wow, zing. [00:41:11] Speaker A: But you know, I think even from, from the Rio Paralympics, just the up spike in attentiveness and like exposure and support that gotten in between Rio and Tokyo and then Tokyo to Paris and now with LA coming up, I think us here in the US are going to get some awesome exposure. And it's been really cool to, you know, be a part of that movement. I've always wanted to be an athlete of some sort. You know, growing up, I think every young boy that plays sports wants to be, you know, on top of the world in the sport community. And after I lost my vision, I wasn't able to do that. And go gave me an opportunity to do that. And so, you know, I can, I can be proud and say that I've been on top of the world in a sport that I absolutely love. [00:42:03] Speaker C: And if I could just emphasize real quick, Sam, the parallel aspect of it. Para, para Olympics. And so that's something that's really, really important to emphasize that it is the Parallel Games. And so we would actually have one summer or winter Olympics for all athletes able bodied and physically disabled if there was a place large enough to host it. But the Olympics is anywhere between seven and 8,000 athletes and then the Paralympics is anywhere between four and 5,000 athletes. And so when you think about those sure numbers, that is one of the reasons why they have two separate games to parallel each other so that they can fit. Because the World cup of Football, of soccer is the world's most spectated event, followed up by the Olympics and the Paralympics as 2 and 3. When I was at the Paralympics in Rio DE Janeiro in 2016, we actually set the single day attendance record for spectators coming to watch all the events that were happening at the Paralympics. September 10th of, of 2016, over 110,000 fans came, which was more than at any point in the able bodied Olympic Games. So that, you know, I mean, it is those spectators, they eat it up. People come to the games, learn about the adaptations or the sports that weren't adapted, that were just created for athletes with disabilities and then they fall in love with them. So the fact that Peacock pretty much put the entire Paralympic goalball tournament on its, you know, platform to stream, it really gave our game quite a exposure, you know, around our country and around the world too. It was awesome. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Is there an age limit for goalball? [00:43:51] Speaker C: Some people probably would tell you there would, but I don't think so. I think if you have the, the, the knack and you keep yourself in reasonably, you know, good physical condition. You know, when I played goalball in the United States consistently with my club from Northern California, my second best player on my team was, you know, in his late 40s, early 50s. And he was definitely capable to mix it up with the players who were at that Paralympic level. He just had a family and a career that didn't allow him to take the time that you need to dedicate to the Paralympic path. But he was, he was a peer to anyone from 20 to 35. He was awesome. So, you know, there's no age limit. They've talked a little bit about starting like a masters division so players could compete against their peers, which is really the primary focus and most important focus of goalball. Even back at its, you know, earliest roots when they started having those blinded soldiers from World War II, they wanted them in their peer groups. You play in your peers and then as you rise to the top of your peer group, you have an opportunity to progress and play with better and better competition. So it's, you know, it's really great in that way. And we had our USA tournaments set up like that as well, where we'd have like an elite division and then like they call the development developmental or intermediate. And then as your team got more experience and started to play closer to the elite level, you would have opportunities to like move up in, in rank. So it Was. It was really great. It was growing the sport like crazy. [00:45:27] Speaker B: But do you feel like there are more men's teams as opposed to women teams? And if so, why? [00:45:35] Speaker C: I mean, I, you know, again, we. It just depends on the. The region of the country. There's probably similar number of women's to men's teams, like in the mid Atlantic corridor, Baltimore, D.C. philly, New Jersey, New York, and in California, for the most part, we've had some teams that were, you know, women's teams that have come and gone. There's been a little bit of a push. I think we're up to like, nine, like, committed players in the state of California now. So in the world, just because of, you know, politics and different, you know, reasons, there are more men's teams. I think it's like 87 men's teams in the world and, like, in like, 43 or 44 women's. But again, that's. It's all about opportunity. It's all about just what. What's available to people in their communities. And then, you know, the. The individual's willingness to, you know, get down on the floor and dive around and get hit by a ball. You know, maybe there's more guys willing to let that happen. I don't. I don't know what the. The major reason is, but like I said, in certain parts of the country, you would definitely find, like, an abundance of. Of men's over women's. And then if you got to an enclave where a lot of women had started playing it, then you would find that there's, you know, several. Several teams in the U.S. what does. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Goalball mean to you as a person? [00:47:00] Speaker A: Oh, man. Yeah, man, that is. That is a tough question because, like, I want to say it's life, but it's. It's not at the same time, but it's. It was. It means more to me than, I think, a lot of people because it is more to me. It is more than just. Than just sport. It gave me the opportunity to have community. Before I found goalball, I refused to use a cane. I really refused to accept my blindness because I didn't think anyone else would, except me, anyone would want to hang out or anything like that. But being around in the community, hanging out with veterans of the game like Joe, and just. Even outside the game, you know, just showing that you can be independent, you can live life like. You can go on adventures, you can have fun while you're still holding the cane. I think that's what goalball has taught me. Not only in the sport itself because it, you know, as an athlete and as always being an athlete, there was only after losing my vision, there was just one limitation that I could never get around, and that was, you know, people had more vision than me. But on the goalball court, like that is completely taken away and it can just be my athletic ability. So just the community and the opportunities, opportunities that it really provided me, I think has just been something that I can't even really describe in words. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Jill. [00:48:32] Speaker C: And for, for me, it is equality because I get an opportunity to geek out on the stats the same way I would for some of the professional sports that I consume. Just as a fan, it's also given me a heck of a lot of confidence as a person who's blind. Spatial awareness and orientation and mobility are some core concepts that the game teaches you, along with a lot of those great team aspects, right, like when you're a young kid in Pop Warner or you're, you know, playing basketball, boy or girl. Team sports gives you quite a few life skills. Communications, problem solving, you know, group, group dynamic and, you know, how to learn to be positive as a group and win and lose as a team. You know, teaching you how to be a gracious winner and a proud, you know, coping loser. I mean, so there's a lot of things where, if, if we didn't have some of these, these team activities that either were adapted or, you know, created a whole cloth for our, our community, as Zach said, like, you know, where would we find those life lessons that as humans, it's very important for us to learn and to experience, let alone, you know, having something to call your own as a person who's blind. But just if I can sit down at a, at a table at a social event with players who played college sports or who, you know, I had the pleasure of coaching some athletes at the University of California, Berkeley, who had actually gone on to have, like professional sports careers and that had come back to Berkeley to finish their degree after their playing careers were over. And like, we could have high level discussions about technique and about expectations and about responsibilities and all of that stuff just made me feel like what I had done in my life was raise the level of this game of goalball to where it was forcing people who were involved in learning that it was, you know, a high level sport that deserved high level vernacular and high level stack keeping, you know, so that's really what it means to me. It's just an opportunity to connect with something I've been passionate about my whole life, which Is, which is sports and also my community. I mean, I work with people who are blind, I mentor, I live with. So in a grand scheme, like, my life's work has really been trying to bring goalball to the community as a whole, as in like the society as my community, and trying to connect them with this team sport that, you know, has stats and a time and all these different things that you'd find in the same if you were a hockey or football or basketball fan. [00:51:21] Speaker B: We are out of time. So real quick, how can somebody who is interested get involved. Involved with goalball? [00:51:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I would definitely say reach out to your local, like, blind sports organization if you have one. There's. There's quite a few out there reaching out to your local community and just kind of seeing, like, what's out there. If there's any blind schools in the area. Um, that's a great way to really get started, just getting. Just get involved in the community. Um, and just kind of diving your. [00:51:51] Speaker C: Foot in social media, you know, Google, Facebook, YouTube. If you search goalball, G O, A L, B A L, L, one word. You'll be surprised how close that a club or a program or a Wednesday night, just, you know, kind of friendly get together, how close it potentially is to where you live. [00:52:09] Speaker B: So thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Joel Hamilton and Zach Bueller, thanks so much. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Sam. Appreciate it. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Goodbye. [00:52:19] Speaker C: Really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. [00:52:21] Speaker B: Take care and good luck. Thank you for joining us on Disability in Progress. We really appreciate you listening. And thanks to Michael Coughlin for suggesting this show. If you have a suggestion, you can always email me at disabilityandprogressamjasmond.com that's disabilityandprogressamjasmin.com we really do exist by your contributions. So talk to us. This has been Disability in Progress and the info is brought to you by not necessarily those who decide on the board, but by Sam Jasmin and Charlene Dahl. Thanks so much for listening. This is KFAI 90.3 fminneapolis and kfai.org thanks to Aaron for podcasting for me. And tonight we were speaking about what it is, who plays it, and how the sport works. Thanks again to our contributor for suggesting this, Michael Coughlin. And thank you, Joe Hamilton and Zach Bueller for being on. Thanks for listening. Fresh Fruit is up next.