Speaker 0 00:05 <inaudible> <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:37 for joining disability and progress, but we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Charlene doll is my research team. Matt Finkle is the engineer for this episode and thanks to him for doing so. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. If you want to be on my email list, you may email
[email protected]. Many of people have been drug on when they sent me an email. So if you want to speak your mind or have a topic aired, you should do so. Tonight we are speaking with Leah Bauman Smith. Leah is talking to us tonight about the company mad Hatter wellness and Matt had a wellness provides sexual education for people with all abilities. Some discussions, um, that may be discussed on this episode could be sensitive content that, um, for younger viewers.
Speaker 1 01:40 So be aware of that. Thank you for joining us. We have, thank you so much. Yes, we had. Can you tell me, start out by telling me who is mad Hatter wellness and how did the company get it started? Yeah, for sure. So Matt had her wellness is a small company based out of st Paul, Minnesota. There are three of us that work full time and then we have um, a few other people that kind of come and help us out, um, with assisting our classes or, um, yeah, just kind of general support. Um, so it started the Manhattan started about I think seven or eight years ago. Um, a woman by the name of Katie soon started med header wellness. She was a special education teacher in Saint Paul public schools and she left there to kind of start a company that really focused on health and wellness, um, for people with disabilities.
Speaker 1 02:38 And she found that, uh, sexuality education kind of kept coming up as one of the themes and one of the needs that she was seeing, um, within her programming. So, as of right now, we have two programs. So one is called power V, which is a program that focuses, um, kind of on that middle school age, uh, people and focusing on kind of empowering skills. And we talked about puberty and healthy behaviors and, um, just kind of a, a nice way to help out people kind of going through that transitional phase of being in middle school. And then our other, uh, program and classes and stuff that we offer is called sexuality for all abilities, which is a published curriculum that a number of schools around the state and he was in a few around the country. Um, and that is a curriculum for sexuality education for people of all abilities.
Speaker 1 03:35 Um, it was created kind of with people with intellectual and cognitive and developmental delays in mind when we created it. And we also work with people, um, with intellectual and developmental disabilities, kind of help us create that curriculum. And, um, but I've been using it for a number of, for a few years now and it definitely, um, yeah, you can, it works well with everyone. Um, so you don't, uh, yeah, people with all abilities can really benefit from sexuality education. Well, fortunately or unfortunately for me, I remember my middle school year as well, um, junior high and my feelings of junior higher people become a little bit subhuman then. So I think they need all the help they can get. Yeah. It's not wrong puberty of the bras man. Yes, yes it is. So how did you decide that you were going to get involved doing something like this?
Speaker 1 04:34 Yeah, so my background has been special education. I was a special education teacher for about 13 or 14 years and about 10 years ago I was super lucky and got to participate in a class or a series of classes through a program called the birds and the bees, which was offered, um, right, uh, through the university of Minnesota. And I think it was only a ride. It was like a grant funded program. So it was only around for a couple years. Um, but it was to get licensed teachers certified in sexuality education. And I kind of just like on a whim was like, Oh yeah, I want to do that. That sounds great. So I did that program. Um, and then yeah, just kind of on my own was just started keeping sex ed, uh, to specialty in special education. Um, I kind of got resources, um, from the Birdman abuse program.
Speaker 1 05:29 Um, there's a few other, um, there's a program called slash that does sex ed for people in special education, but there weren't a lot of materials or curriculum or information for me. Um, and so a colleague of mine actually sent me like a link to Katie's work and that had her wellness and I went to a training of hers maybe three years ago now. And, um, during the presentation she was like, even how I really want to hire more people, but not a lot of people have, um, have a background in both sexuality education and special education. And I was like, Oh my goodness. Like I found my people. And so after the training I emailed her and I was like, you want to hire me? Like, I wasn't even like, Hey, I'm interested. Like I just like sent her an email being like, you want me to work for you?
Speaker 1 06:16 Um, and then we met for coffee and talk for four hours and now I work for her. Um, and it's so fun. So what ages and uh, I, I guess disabilities you teach. I mean, what, what did you have in, in your special ed class when you were working with them? Yeah, so I ended up primarily worked with high school aged students. I love, um, working with teens. They're a super fun age of humans. And so yeah, my background is definitely in work with high school students. Now we do, um, we actually teach a really wide range of ages. Um, we taught a class this fall that included preschool students where we talked about, um, just kind of the idea that like, my body belongs to me. I get to decide who touches it when and where. Um, or, uh, just kind of more of those like basic, like theory of your body parts.
Speaker 1 07:16 This is what they're called. This is what they do. Um, all the way up through, we have groups that we work with who are older adults and we have a class about kind of how your body changes as you age. I think a lot of times we think about like puberty, that's when your body changes and then like that's it. But really our bodies are changing so much, um, throughout our whole lives. So really thinking about sexuality, education as a lifelong learning opportunities, not just like a, I would think about this like a lot of, I gotta remember in when I was growing up, sex ed was like in fifth grade you watched a movie about periods and then eighth grade they like mentioned like don't have sex. And like that's it. And I was like, what if we got like math that way? Like one day in fifth grade?
Speaker 1 08:04 And I'm like, that was it for the right to do that. But, um, obviously like sexuality affects our lives forever. So it seems like something we should maybe be, uh, paying a little more attention to in schools. Yeah, maybe so. Right, right. For many reasons. Um, so I'm wondering, you know, I think that it's interesting that you got involved in this and I want to know, um, it sounds like you cover several ages, but what does sexual education really mean to you and why does this look different? Teaching it to people with disabilities? Yeah, yeah, that's, thank you. That's a really good question. Um, I think a lot of times when we, the word, um, you know, sexual education, sex ed, we like to say sexuality education cause I think it just sort of encompasses a whole lot of things. So I would think about it as that's really education like really includes so many parts of our lives.
Speaker 1 09:10 So yeah. Yeah. We talk about reproduction and genitals, but we also talk about sexual orientation, gender identity, healthy relationships, um, relationships you have with other people, relationships, the relationship you have to yourself. Um, body image. It really covers such a huge part of who we are. And so when I think about sex education, it really needs to be comprehensive. It needs to include like kind of all parts of your being, not just like, I think a lot of times historically sex has been like, don't get pregnant, don't if I go a lot of fear based in shame. Like if you do this, it's bad. Or if this happened, whatever he did was wrong, but really like it should be kind of a joyful thing. Like we're celebrating like having positive relationships, um, teaching people how about consent, um, body image, how they feel about themselves in the world.
Speaker 1 10:05 Um, and then also it needs to be accessible, needs to be accessible for everyone, so people of all abilities, um, and that it supports cross sections of identity, but it isn't like, okay, you have a disability. Um, but you also might identify as LGBTQ. Um, and there's just, there's so many ways that we can make it more comprehensive that it includes people of all gender identity, sexual orientation, ability levels. Um, and then just so important that it's, that sexuality education is really non-shaming non-reactive. Um, and just supportive for everyone. And the piece about working with people with disabilities to kind of came out of, um, kind of why, like why we do the work that we do. Um, we think a lot, like right now, in the last couple years, there's been a lot of talk around, um, you know, the me too movement and kind of around sexual assault, sexual abuse, um, like really heavy hard topics for people to kind of grapple with.
Speaker 1 11:06 Um, and there was a study done in 2017 by the justice department that found that people with intellectual and developmental disabilities were, um, sexually assaulted at a rate of seven times higher than their peers. And, um, also during this study they found that, um, of the people who had experienced, um, sexual assault, over half of them had been sexually assaulted more than 10 times. So 10 or more times. So when we think about our, um, people with disabilities or people who are in special education, it's, it's a huge, like a safety issue. Um, and something that I don't think, um, has been talked about very much until very recently. And even now I feel like it's of people are kind of coming out and saying like, Hey, like this is not okay. Like everyone deserves to be able to, um, have healthy and safe relationships and that it doesn't matter what your ability or disability is that ever they're said.
Speaker 1 12:08 Um, and so yeah, that was kind of the, um, that's kind of our motivating factor. And while we have two pieces of that is like, that is a huge motivator for us if we want to, um, provide accessible equitable sexuality education, um, that helps people live safer, um, lives. And then we also want to like really bring in the excitement and enthusiasm around like proactive education, um, and that sexuality should be something that we celebrate and that could be really positive. So yeah, we're speaking with Leah Bauman. Smith. Leah is from mad Hatter wellness and we are talking about sexuality and disability. I want to remind people that there could be some content sensitive content, uh, age sensitive content in this show. So be aware if you have young listeners, um, we, you know, that the statistic you gave me always strikes me as just mortifying because you're depending on when you have a child with a disability, any disability that you think that people will be more cautious, um, more caring.
Speaker 1 13:32 They're already more discriminated. We know that. Um, but you would think that, you know, they would be more careful. There's teachers and caregivers and whomever else. But to have this statistic is tells me that something clearly is going wrong and what I don't understand is how is it that that's such a high statistic? What happens? What, what, where does the slip happen? Yeah. Yeah. A number of factors about why people with intellectual and developmental disabilities are more vulnerable to assault and kind of a few different. So one is this kind of societal attitudes and beliefs around sexuality. I think that, um, it's your topic where people are like, Oh no, my, you know, my kids or my friends or my, whoever the person is that you're working with, they don't, they don't have the expert. They're not, that's not like a risk factor for them.
Speaker 1 14:39 We don't have to worry about that topic. Um, I think also, uh, people aren't really isolated a lot of times. So if you are someone who, um, doesn't have a lot of friends, there, doesn't have a lot of access to other people to kind of talk to that. Um, yeah, you're more vulnerable to having someone kind of prey upon prop play upon you if you are more isolated. Um, another thing is just kind of, uh, that people with disabilities, um, or with intellectual and cognitive disabilities might not always be believed when they tell someone that something happened. Um, I think also, so, um, I don't have, I don't remember where this fits if they came from, but it's something that we share a lot in trainings that we do that only 9% of, um, sexual assaults, um, are occur from strangers, um, for people with intellectual and cognitive disability.
Speaker 1 15:39 So it isn't, um, kind of that stranger danger. Someone's out there to get you. Um, the most, most often has a family member or caregiver or someone who's being paid to kind of help take care of you. So a PCA, uh, um, group home support staff. Uh, so that's really hard. Um, because it's someone that you are relying on and that's paid to care for you. Um, I think there's a few other kind of things like someone who maybe is higher needs to, needs help with like toileting or getting dressed, that can be really hard to kind of know when a touch is a necessary versus an exploitative touch. And so they're kind of becomes this like learn dependence or, um, kind of learn compliance. It's like, Oh, well this is, my person is paid to take care of me. So they're doing what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 16:33 And so maybe they don't feel like, like they might feel kind of icky or like, Oh, I don't think this, I'm not sure. It might not feel good to them, but the person might not know how to tell or who to tell. And so I think that there's, um, I think people who are more vulnerable, um, just have more access points. Like they have people who are like lots of people who are paid to sort of care for them. Um, and then that increases their risk of vulnerability. Yeah. Um, and I think there's a lot of misperceptions with people about sex and disabilities. Um, one earlier that, um, people with disabilities don't have sex. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah, I think it's, um, you know, there are obviously there are some disabilities that seem to be accepted a little more that idea, but I think that there's still that whole misperception and I wonder if one of the best perceptions is as well is if they get abused, they won't tell.
Speaker 1 17:44 Yeah. Yup. Right. Yeah, that was, there was, um, there was another study. I w I always feel bad just like saying there's a study, but this is a thing that we, we share in our presentations a lot when we're talking to teachers and parents that, um, like 3% of assaults are reported. Um, I don't know where that number comes from. And so there's really low reporting. Um, and because of, I think maybe people aren't going to believe, um, someone or just like if you're nonverbal, like how do you tell somebody or if you have a communication disorder, how do you share this information with someone else who cares about you? We can help you if you, or maybe you don't know what's wrong. Like if someone's always kind of helping you go to the bathroom or touching you, you might not know. And so I think that there's a lot of, um, ways that, yeah, it's like vastly under reported that it's happening.
Speaker 1 18:45 So I understand you, um, tech teach sexual education to wide right of edges. Is high school your main age or what tends to be, yeah, so, um, I, high school is my favorite age. Um, I don't get to do that as much as I used to do. I um, yeah, I wish I was teaching more in high school. So kind of how we operate a lot of schools, I think, uh, I'm, I know it's over a hundred. It might be over 150 schools and special education programs in the state, like have our curriculum and our teaching sexuality education to their students. So, um, usually when we're doing work with high schools, we're working with the teachers to kind of train them in this curriculum. Um, and then we also have a grant through DHS to provide, um, sexuality education to about in group homes and in jobs, um, like employment, like rise or, um, some of those employment programs because we found that like we can't, um, a lot of adults didn't ever get any, um, sexuality education.
Speaker 1 19:53 And so most of the classes I'm currently teaching right now are, um, with adults. So over 21, um, I am teaching one right now that's uh, kind of a high school transition age, like 16 to 21. Um, but yeah, so the weekly classes I teach right now are more for adults. You would say high school is your favorite age. Why is that? Is there you feel like you're more, um, free to ask things or what is it? I just, I like really appreciate like how honest high school students are. Like they do not care about your feelings. I'm not all, that was like a vast generalization, but I just really appreciate how honest and funny they are. And um, yeah, I feel like also I will say so as someone who's, I've taught a wide range of ability levels, um, behavior, kind of a little bit of everything in specialized and I found that even my students with like the highest behavioral needs, the ones that are going to, you know, say the F word to me one minute, as soon as I'm like, Hey, we're going to do our lesson on sexuality education.
Speaker 1 21:09 Like suddenly everyone is like, yeah, I'm going to listen to everything you have to say. I'm going to feel like, you know, super engaged and involved. And I think that, um, young people just really crave this information. Um, I work a lot with student two. Um, I've usually worked with older high school students and a lot of times I'd be teaching them and they'd be like, this is the first time anyone's talked to me about this. And you know, they're like 17, 18. Um, so they've, a lot of them have already been through puberty, you know, like, Oh my goodness, I wish someone would have told me about this while it was happening. Like think about how scary that would be if you like, didn't know what a period was and then you woke up and had your period. Like that's really scary if you don't know, um, kind of why and how that's happening.
Speaker 1 21:56 Or, um, we, we talked earlier, um, about how you discussed about how, um, sometimes cognitive and people with intellectual disabilities tend to be pulled out of some of these classes and offered something else such as reading time or whatever that might be. Um, so why is this and do you think that that's right or what do you think should happen there? Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a complex situation. So one is that currently, like Minnesota is not one of the States that requires sexuality education. So they do, um, require health. And so a lot of times, but then the school district kind of gets to decide on what's taught. And so I think a lot of schools, um, include sex education, um, but some just don't. And then, um, yeah, I think the kind of along those same lines of like, people thinking like, Oh, people with disabilities or with cognitive or intellectual disabilities, they're not going to have sex.
Speaker 1 23:03 So they don't, they don't need to be in this class. And so that might be a time when they get pulled out of the class to do like reading support or meet with the speech therapist. And like I, I would say that the way I also think reading is very important. Um, but I think that a lot of times, um, I don't think parents too, they might be like, you know, I'm, I don't want my kid to be in that class. Like they're not going to have back there. That's not something that they're ready for yet. I always want to be like, your kid. Like they're still gonna go through puberty rather whether they are ready for it or you are ready for it or not, but it just happens. It doesn't matter what, you know, ability or disability, they have like, um, can you that information.
Speaker 1 23:47 Um, and I think there's sort of also, um, yeah, especially education cookie because you want it to include students as much as possible. So I think a lot of schools take that sort of like equality approach. Like, Oh, everyone is going to go to the same class about, um, you know, menstruation and how babies are made and everyone will get the same information. So, but then you think about like, is that really equitable affects education? Like are the people who have cognitive or intellectual disabilities, are they like, are they understanding the material? Is the material, yeah. Is it like, are you going at a pace where they're able to kind of keep up and know what you're talking about? Is there someone kind of reteaching the topics to them so that that information sticks? Is it like, are you, yeah. Are you providing accommodations for their learning or modifications for kind of how they get that information is, I think that that is rarely happening.
Speaker 1 24:46 Um, I do think that, um, I'm like, I'm a big fan of like including people when, whenever possible. I also think that this information is really important. And so having, you know, a smaller class or having a group where you, um, are able to teach sexuality education in a way that is accessible to everyone is really important. So when you're, um, doing workshops or teaching like the teachers, what kind of topics are you talking with them about? Like how, how are you teaching them to address the different topics that you need them to address or that they should address? Yeah, tricky parts of being able to about being a special education teacher that they don't always tell you is that you will teach everything. So you'll be teaching math, science, social studies, and you'll feel probably teach sex ed to whether you want to or not.
Speaker 1 25:42 It's going to come up in your classroom. And so we always kind of, we train the teachers and sort of like how to use our curriculum. Just, um, we go through the curriculum is like very straightforward. Um, and you know, myself and Katie and Ana, our third, um, colleagues, she was a English language learner teacher, Katie and I both special education teachers. So we feel like, and we've gotten a lot of good feedback that it's very tailored, um, to special education teachers. Um, but then we really focus on, um, during our teacher trainings, sort of how to respond to questions. So a lot of like, it's great if you can have a like, separate, um, you know, sexuality, education class. But a lot of times these topics just sort of come up naturally suppose, especially in special education classrooms. Like you might be teaching math and someone raises their hand and it's like, honey, you're pregnant.
Speaker 1 26:38 And you're like, wow, I just have to be ready for this to come up at any time. Um, and so we really encourage teachers to kind of, um, sort of practice responding to those questions. So, um, one thing we really encourage is to always say like, that's a great question. Thanks for asking that. Like, even if it's like the most outlandish question you've ever heard and you're like, Oh my goodness, how am I going to answer this? A lot of times students are asking a question because they want to know if they're normal or they want to know, um, sort of like they just, they want information and you're a trusted adult. So making sure they feel like validated about their question. And then we, one thing that we encourage teachers to do is try to kind of, if you can figure out like why they're asking that question right. Um, which can be tricky and it's nice if you know your students really well cause there are definitely some students who are going to try to do that. Like got your question.
Speaker 1 27:37 Yeah, I guess, yeah, that definitely happens. But then sometimes like they might really just be asking you that question because they don't know or they heard something from their siblings or they saw something on a TV show and they want to know if it's real or if it's, you know. And so, um, I was encouraged teachers just like answer the like whatever factual part of the question. Um, uh, Katie, my boss had a teacher or someone asked her once if, um, aliens go through puberty. I like all living. Yeah. Like all living beings go through some changes in their lives at some point. So probably, um, and so it just kind of thinking about how questions might be funny but they also might just be, um, yeah, because the students are wondering or because um, yeah, so answering things as factually as possible. I, we always tell teachers it's also okay if you don't know the answer.
Speaker 1 28:37 And just to say that cause like, you know what, I'm not sure, um, about that question, but I will find out and get back to you. We always say like, make sure you get back to your students. Otherwise, they're going to be like Googling that question. You just want to kind of avoid Google and the internet being your main source of sexuality education. Um, we always talk about just really trying to avoid value statements. A lot of times students are kind of asking questions based on like values that maybe their parents have or their family has. And that can be a little bit tricky when you're an educator. You don't want to be like your parents wrong. Um, that was open up a whole can of worms. So we do a lot of, some people believe that, you know, touching your private parts, um, in your own room is safe and healthy.
Speaker 1 29:26 Other people believe that is not a healthy practice. Like, um, and so yeah, it's tricky because, um, I'm actually, I shouldn't, I'm terrible at that. I'm terrible at like keeping my, although, um, conversations about sexuality, education, um, but we, you know, as a teacher and then avoiding personal stories, that can be really hard. Um, especially when you're a special education teacher, a lot of times you have students for maybe multiple years and they, they get to know you, they know a lot about you. Um, and so a lot of times students want to know like, you know, how old were you when you had sex? The first time is a question I get all the time. And so then you have to be like, you know, that's a, some people, yeah, that's a question is that everyone's different. You can decide to have sex when you feel like you're ready and then kind of we'll have like a hero, some things that maybe you should think about before you have sex, but trying to avoid some of those.
Speaker 1 30:28 Yeah, it's hard. Students really want to, they want to know about your personal life. Um, and then another thing that we really work with teachers on is, um, responding to sexual behaviors. And so in special education there are, every time we do a cheater training, someone is like, so how do I get my students to not touch themselves in class? And we're like, yep, everything. That is a very normal question because there's so many different reasons why people might touch themselves in class. It could just be like, and usually it's not because they're trying to be gross, they're trying to freak anyone out. But it is a lot of times like, uh, a body's response to stress or anxiety, um, or, um, they're just exploring. It's a new feeling. It's exciting. Um, you know, you have lower cognition or um, I still go with intellectual disabilities.
Speaker 1 31:20 You might not know that it's inappropriate. And so we teach a lot about sort of that, how to respond in like a non-reactive non-shaming like you have to be calm. Also assertive. You know, someone going on a field trip and someone pulls their pants down, you gotta get those pants back up, you know, you got to get them to pull their pants back up so you, sometimes you have to kind of think quickly and think on your toes. But being as like, Oh no clock, hands down in public, you need to pull those back up. That's actually illegal. You need to pull your pants up. But being really, not being like, Oh my goodness, like, why am I doing that? Or trying to, you know, you don't ever want your students to feel bad for behavior that they're, um, yeah, that they're exhibiting. I think too though, sometimes it's hard, like when you're a teacher and something kind of surprising happens and you're like, okay, I gotta fix my face.
Speaker 1 32:09 So I'm not like, Oh my goodness. You know what I mean? Kind of panicking like, what's happening. Um, so being able to stay really calm and then also just remembering that like, even like, obviously like in the moment, take care of the situation and then remember that like when you're a teacher, like you have a team of people who can help you. So if this is a situation, um, that needs to be addressed. Um, obviously like with the person, with your students, um, but also like talking to their parents, talking to your school, social worker, your school administrators, like really, um, you don't have to like figure all this out yourself. Um, but yeah, so just, I think like staying calm and nonreactive and non-shaming is like this. Yeah, that's kind of the, the most important thing. We're speaking with Leah Bauman Smith who is from mad Hatter wellness.
Speaker 1 32:58 Leah's talking to us about sexual education, uh, sex ed for all abilities. And I want to remind you that if you're just tuning in what took you so long, but if you are, that there may be some sensitive content for younger listeners, so be aware of that. So we have a couple things. Um, you've touched on something about, you know, parents can have different rules and being sensitive to them and some of times I can't even, it baffles me how parents think, how they think sometimes. But that being said, um, my parents never talked to me about sex. Um, it was, it was just, I don't know what it was, honestly and I, so I can't, I can imagine that if you have more profound disabilities or, um, you know, other types of disabilities where they're unsure of what you might understand or not understand that they'd be more apt not to speak about sex.
Speaker 1 34:08 So how do you deal with that and how do you address things with the parents? Because I'm sure then if you come in the parent's like, Whoa, what are you telling my child? So how does that work? Yeah. Yes. I would say that that is, um, can be one of the trickier parts of, um, my job right now. Um, well sometimes I think that, um, in high school it's nice, um, because like if it's a, if you're in, you know, or not even just high school if you're in the school system was kind of already like, uh, I'm usually sending home a letter. Like the teacher would send home a letter saying, here's you know, the crypto and we're going to use, here are the topics we're going to cover. Um, you can opt in or opt out. And some schools do that. Um, and then other schools might just say like, Hey, we're teaching this.
Speaker 1 34:56 Um, like let us know what questions you have. Um, and then other times, um, so kind of our approach has been when we are working with people that we, I'm trying to include parents as much as possible because you know, they're like, ultimately they're going to be the ones who are educating their child belonged to us and so they can really be on board with this. Um, it can be really helpful. So we do, um, some parents like parent classes where parents can, um, kind of learn about the curriculum or learn about the work that we do. Um, and then we have some resources, uh, online the parents can purchase. We have like a family discussion guide where I have, um, different activities and questions and, um, 10 facilitated. It's hard when you're a parent just to be like, Oh, when am I just going to like sit down and talk to you about this?
Speaker 1 35:47 Like, it can be tricky if you have some extra tools. Um, we have like a little card that called an empower me project where parents can, there's different topics and ideas on one side and then there's like discussion questions on the other side. Um, and one of the ways that we really can kind of connect with parents who might be feeling a little bit interest about this is a lot of times like our first three or four classes are really focused on healthy relationships, boundaries, um, safety, private versus public behaviors. Um, and I think that most like usually parents are on board with those topics, like regardless of your, um, kind of abilities or disabilities. Um, they want parents want their kids to have healthy relationships, to be able to set boundaries, to kind of know what the appropriate to do in public versus what can you do in private.
Speaker 1 36:39 Um, personal safety. Those are all things that most parents, um, I think all the ones I've met have been pretty onboard with those. So that's a nice, so when we talk, I think like I mentioned earlier, like sometimes people hear the word sexuality and then they're like, ah, they're going to just talk about genitals and pregnancy and you know, like, yeah, we will mention those things and you know, in depth and talk about them. But, um, we've also had some parents that are like, you know, can my, um, my kids are my not my kid. I always my child, can they come to these classes when you talk about these, you know, healthy relationships, safety, um, and those would be the classes that they attend. They were like, we're very flexible in, um, like we'll always get, you know, there's no question back a little bit, you know, with parents it's like you are, you know, like, here's why, um, all of this is important, but we also want to like really meet people where they're at.
Speaker 1 37:32 Like, yeah, if you're, um, you know, kids or if your child can get information on boundaries and personal safety, like those, that's gonna be a huge, um, that's huge for them. And so like, we really want to work with parents to make sure that they're, they're also feeling supported too, because I think we think about exceptionally, education can bring up so many feelings for everyone. Like not just the people who are in the class. So like the teachers, um, the parents, like there's a lot of attendees, a lot of time on her, a lot of feelings around this topic. And so as much as we can also support the parents, be like, um, you know, here are some resources, here's how we can help you. And I think that that can be really powerful. I'd like to tell them something I saw on your website on yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 38:21 On, um, boundaries and where you showed, uh, when somebody wants to touch somebody or hug somebody and you were showing, you know, different ways that they could approach that. One of the things that occurs to me is that if, uh, somebody who has a vision disability along with these cognitive disabilities, they lose some of those signals and as well, maybe with autism even. So, like they wouldn't necessarily see some of the facial signals or notice some of the facial signals. So what do you do with that when you have multiple disabilities? Yeah, some of those cues I would think need to be changed if you would have to switch what you would teach. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So there's, yeah, that's, um, yeah, there's kind of a, yeah, a lot with that. So, um, I have a two, a two pronged approach I would say. So really.
Speaker 1 39:27 So I recently worked with someone who had a vision impairment and they were talk a lot about, um, they kind of like would touch someone to kind of know who it was, who they were talking to. They also have an intellectual disability. And so they would say like, well I am, but they were really good at advocating for themselves. And so they would tell that to the group. Like before we start class you said, they're like, Oh, I envision impaired. I might like, you know, touch your hand or touch your arm to see who you are. And then, um, 10 people could then respond. And I felt like that was a really positive way. So people weren't feeling like, Oh, this person just keeps touching me. Like they kind of knew why. And I think that was really important. So we do a lot of work too with, um, a group home staff or job sites to also really train the staff.
Speaker 1 40:14 And then also the other people in that community. So if we know that someone, um, is vision impaired and, um, might need to touch as a way to navigate the space that is, um, that everyone's aware of that and they know that that's, um, a situation. Um, yes. And then we also have the, for people who are maybe non verbal or who have communication disorders, um, we have a couple of different, so we have things, um, like voice or voice, what do they call big voice to text or voice activated so they can just push like a yes or a no. Or we have, we have little cards that may be on someone's wheelchair where they can look at, um, like with their eyes, if they have trouble with movement and speech, they can use their eyes to look at, um, the yes or the no card.
Speaker 1 41:09 And so you kind of, you threw up to be like, you'd have to pay really close attention. I think a lot of the staff that we've worked with has been awesome about that. And like train their staff on how to kind of cause giving consent. Um, and asking for consent isn't always just as simple as like a yes or no. Um, because of lots of different, um, ability levels. And, uh, we always talk about how consent is actually a three step process where you have to ask someone and then you actually have to listen to what they, how they respond. And then you have to respect that decision. And that can get really hard, especially when you're working closely with someone. Maybe you are their PCA or you have a job coach and like you call you really care about them. And so, um, you know, you might want to give them hugs or you might want to, um, but just making sure that always modeled that, um, like asking, listening to how they respond and then respecting, um, yeah, that's, and then we also teach a lot about like rejection.
Speaker 1 42:09 So how do you handle it if someone, if you ask for consent and they say no, what do you do? Cause that's, uh, you know, it can be kind of a hard feeling. The processing, um, that that's really normal. Rejection's like a super normal part of life. And I'm working on those skills too. And then also like what do you do if someone says, yeah, like if you ask someone if they want a kiss them, they want to kiss you. Like that can also be kind of scary and overwhelming too. So being able to kind of respond to consent in however it happens. But yeah, it is a really, it's, I think a lot of times, especially now during the me too movement, the word consent is used a lot, which I'm very excited about. Um, but I do wish that there was a little more kind of nuance about it that people's communication disorders, people envision impairments, people, intellectual disabilities might give consent in different ways.
Speaker 1 42:58 I think consent is, is used a lot, but I also think it's misused a lot. Yeah. And I wonder if you would talk about a little bit about, you kind of talked about the whole, um, my body is mine, you know, I'm sure it's good touch, bad touch, but, and you, you did refer to this a little bit when you have a cognitive disability or something. Let's say, let's say you're in a wheelchair and or, or maybe you're a para or a quad, even, you really depend on whomever is assisting you to do a lot and they're doing a lot with your body as paving and assisting. Maybe they're doing catheters, maybe they're, they may be doing a number of things. So how do you teach what is over the line? Yeah. Yup. Um, yes, that is really tricky. And I think another one of the reasons why people might be more vulnerable to assaults is because sometimes that line isn't as clear.
Speaker 1 44:03 So, um, a lot of, so we talk a lot about kind of exploitative touch versus necessary touches, necessary touch. And we always like as much as possible like giving people choice. And I know that that doesn't always happen. Like we know group home, they're super short staffed. We know that people are doing a million things at once, but as much as possible, if you can really be respectful about like, you know, I am, someone is going to help you use the bathroom, who do you want to help you? And then give them, you know, staff a or B or, um, someone's going to help you get dressed. Do you want us to, you know, wait until, or do you want to put on your pajamas before you watch a movie or after you watch a movie? Do you want to like giving as much choice in the situation as you can, which I know is not always easy, but if you can create, um, any way that that person has some autonomy or has some decision making about their body, I think can be really powerful to be like, I'm like, yes, I need someone to help me use the bathroom, but I get to decide, you know, when that happens or who that person is.
Speaker 1 45:11 And I think a lot of times that can help with that, um, self advocacy and self determination pieces that we, um, want people to really develop. But yeah, it is. Um, I think too, that's another thing that we talk a lot about with teachers and parents is like teaching about like what exploitation is. Like, what is sexual assault? What is sexual harassment? Um, how to recognize, um, in your body if something is happening that you're uncomfortable with, which can be really hard. Like I'm in my mid thirties, maybe closer to late thirties, but, um, and I still will be like, Oh, I was uncomfortable with that, you know, like 10 minutes after it happened. And I'm like, Oh, wait a minute, I want to go back and be like, no. Um, so kind of teaching those like, you know, if your stomach is hurting or if, um, and then the other piece or you know, if you get nervous or on someone or if there's someone that you just like, don't really want to be around and in, that doesn't necessarily mean that they hurt you or sexually assaulted you, but it might just mean like, yeah, you're not, you're not comfortable around them.
Speaker 1 46:19 Um, and then on the flip side of that, we talk a lot with teachers and parents of kind of how to recognize, um, sexual assault, excuse me. Um, if as kind of changes in your student or your child's behavior. So a lot of times, um, if someone has experienced sexual assault, um, they and they maybe have, are cognitively delayed or have communication disorders or developmental delays that they, um, there might be a change in their behavior. It doesn't always mean they've been sexually assaulted. It could just mean they had a medication change or they're going through puberty or they have a crush on somebody interacting really awkward about it. Um, but it can also mean that something happened that they didn't like or that they didn't, um, that didn't feel good to them. So any changes in, um, if you, if someone's like nonverbal or if they're like, um, I say kind of repeat phrases or words or, um, sounds or if they kind of make new sounds or if they can, um, if they are verbal and the complainant have more stomach aches or more headaches on us, they kind of lose interest and maybe activities that they used to like, or they don't want to go somewhere that they used to be really excited about going to.
Speaker 1 47:40 Um, and again, that doesn't necessarily mean that they were sexually assaulted, but it can mean that something happened. And so as their caregiver or parent or teacher, um, yeah, it's important to just recognize that those signs could mean that something happened. And to follow up with that person. How about something that you, um, you went by in regards to, um, having a crush on somebody? Obviously when you get more intimate and personal relationships, you know, you go from boyfriend or girlfriend and he might have several or you know, you may be the kind that likes to, you know, just, just date lightly LR, you may be the kind that wants to get into some pretty heavy dating and yeah, that whole thing about little layers of relationship. Can you address that and how you teach to that? Yeah. Yeah. So we, um, I am a huge fan of having crashes, my coworker on.
Speaker 1 48:40 And I always talk about how we both want to have a crush on someone everywhere we go. So we're like very open to that idea. Um, but, um, I'm more curious. No, we do, we talk a lot about in our healthy relationship, um, lesson about kind of the different, um, the different categories of relationships we have in our lives. So our family members, our professional relationships are, are our friends. Um, our, uh, romantic partners and we have to, that's actually one of the sticking points. A lot of times romantic partner, um, has to be someone who also agrees that you are in a romantic partnership. So crushes can be crushed. Like we don't really have a lot of control over who we have a crush on. You know, you might walk by someone and be like, Oh, Hey, they're really cute, but you know, you might never see them again or it could be, I mean, sometimes crushes aren't like they're on people that you wouldn't, it wouldn't be appropriate to have a relationship with.
Speaker 1 49:40 So it could be like your college professor or your boss or someone that you, um, you know, that you never would have a relationship with them. It just might you like notice that feeling all the questions that you, um, and so we talk a lot about sort of how you behave. Um, and then just like really clear about like a romantic relationship. Yeah. So you can never make relationships with one or more people, but everyone needs to be, everyone needs to be aware of the romantic relationship. Um, and then if you have multiple that everyone needs to be aware that you have multiple relationships too. So, um, it is pretty fun that we get a lot of great answers. Like when we say like, Oh write down on you. Like, and also like you don't have to have a romantic relationship. Like that's really normal, unhealthy and fine to him.
Speaker 1 50:27 So, so many people though, right? Like Taylor Swift and we're like this and they're like, no, but I'm pretty sure we're in love. And I'm like, well yeah, but nice try to like make someone feel bad about that. But we're just like, Oh, Swift doesn't know you're serious. So then again, would she say like your, her romantic relationship and then they're like, Oh no. Or some of them are like, yes, definitely. So there is a lot of, um, kind of nuance when talking about relationships and about how relationships change. Like someone might be a friend, then they might become a crush and then they might become a romantic relationship or they might not, but that their, um, that relationships change and who is in your friend and on your friend list one day might be, um, not there the next day. So yeah, kind of figuring out all those different relationships.
Speaker 1 51:26 I wonder if we have on something that, it's probably not a brief topic, but I, when I was growing up, I, I knew several people with some pretty multiple, you know, heavy disabilities and the whole topic of masturbation came up and some of these kids or um, you know, people at the time may or may not ever get into a relationship, but they still had the same, you know, the same names that happened. Uh, the same hormones, the same everything. So how do you dress, you know, especially the parents and whatnot because parents thinking, well I did it, but of course my kids didn't want to do that. She's got, you know. Um, so how do you address that, that, that, and, and is it more acceptable now than it used to be? Cause that was really the debated topic. Should you teach them to do that or should you discourage it?
Speaker 1 52:32 Yeah, I mean, I say you like, yes, I think it's very healthy. Um, but we talk a lot about, so, um, kind of private versus public behaviors is one of our big lessons and talking about, um, if you all going to do private behaviors, like catching your downloads masturbating, but that needs to be done somewhere where you're by yourself. No one can see you, no one can hear you. Um, so basically, you know, your bedroom or your bathroom and then talking about like, some people might your bedroom. So you need to like make a plan with your roommate when you get to have private time. Um, I had a meeting this morning with some teachers who, um, my sexuality educator who was saying right now is really a hard time because people are so isolated with their families. And so maybe they never, yeah. So maybe the topic of masturbation hadn't come up before and now <inaudible> back sharing a room with your brother or if you're staying with your parents or you haven't lived with them for a long time or, um, yeah, I think that kind of advocating for privacy is definitely something that we teach the people that we're working with.
Speaker 1 53:48 Um, and then also, yeah, like doing a lot of lessons around with when is it appropriate. So, um, yeah. And then we do really try to clarify too, like it is illegal to masturbate in public or it's important. Yeah. Right. We can't talk about monetary stuff, but, um, boy, this is a great topic. I could have gone on. Um, can you tell people how they can reach you and, yeah, but not, yes. Yeah. So we have, um, so men, hitter wellness has a website. And then we actually have, um, a website for just specifically for sexuality, for all abilities. So it's just <inaudible> dot com and that has, um, all of our refunds. We have a ton of resources on there that we share. And then you can sign up for a newsletter and we send that out. Um, a little more right now. Just know lots of people are at home, kind of, you know, needing resources, needing, um, information. And so we send out resources, all of our class information you can find out through, um, we lost like books, podcasts, what's your wow. Um, sexuality for all abilities. Okay. Well, Leah, so much, I appreciate that you came on. I appreciate your time and please stay. Stay well, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to have a chat with you. Thank you. This has been disability and progress.
