[00:00:00] Speaker A: KPI.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Thank you for joining Disability and Progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Thanks so much for joining in. Charlene Doll is my research team. Hello, Charlene.
Hello, everybody, and happy Thanksgiving.
Miguel Vargas is my engineer today. Thank you, Michelle. And as usual, Erin is my podcaster. Thank you, Erin. This week we're speaking with executive director Brandon Jones. Brandon is from Macmh or minnesota association for Children minnesota association for Children with Mental Health. Is that.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Very close? Very close. It's Minnesota Association for Children's Mental Health.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: For Children's Mental health. Okay.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: It's a mouthful.
We go by Macma for short if you want to use Macma.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: M-A-C-M-H. Yep. Yes. So a lot of people probably don't know what those stand for, but we'll be discussing exactly that this week. So thank you for joining us, and thank you very much, Brandon, for joining us as well.
All right, well, let's start out by telling us who is Macmh and when did they get started.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Sure thing. So, greetings, everyone. My name is Brandon Jones. I am the executive director here at Macma. We got started in the early 90s. This organization has been around for about 33 years, I believe 34 years. I think we're going to 34th year. I'm the second executive director. I took over for the founder back in 2021.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Deb Sackhog retired, and I was the next person up, and I was given the position by the board. And since then, I've come in and really have tried to make sure this organization one does get the recognition that it deserves, because we're a small organization, but mighty, we do a lot of good work, but we are ultimately what's called a mental health education organization. We work with professionals who work with young people that deal with mental health issues, so that's mental health professionals, social workers, educators, sometimes even pediatricians and physical therapists and things of that nature, we help to provide those folks with continuing education units. So for those folks to maintain their licensures and be a part of their professions, we set them up with training so they can get those things completed. We also work with parents and caregivers and helping them navigate the mental health systems that their children may find themselves in. And then we also work with youth, and we have a few youth programs that we have.
We're in a restart with some of our youth programs at the moment, but we do try to engage youth around their conception of mental health well being and how they're navigating it as well. So we try to touch all three of those bases to the best of our ability.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: What is Macma's mission?
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Macma's mission is to promote, pursue, and protect the optimal mental health from children from infancy and until young adulthood. So we like to look at it from a stream model where we want to make sure from infancy, with the early littles bonding with their parents and caregivers all the way up to young adulthood. We like to utilize the brain research that's out there that says that adolescence ends when the brain stops developing, which is roughly around 24 25 years old. So we're here to support folks who are running into mental or emotional health concerns throughout that journey of young adulthood.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Is that about the cut off? Is for young adult 24, 25, or what's your cut off?
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Yes.
So that's about the cut off. Again, we use the current understandings of brain research that says the brain stops developing around that time frame for most people is about 24 25 years old. So we like to honor that. And we like to support what we call young adults. Even though they are adults, a lot of people still see those younger people as children. A lot of parents do. They keep them on their insurance, things of that nature.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: And those folks need supports. And if we're honest, a lot of times, once young people turn 18 and they get into that kind of next phase of life, a lot of resources disappear. And we want to make sure that we're an organization that still supports that age demographic to the best of our ability.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: So you work as well, you support young infants, and I'm trying to think of, like, I can't imagine young infants having mental health issues. Do they?
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. A lot of people are like, how does a ten month year old have mental health struggles? Well, ultimately, even though it's not the same as if you're working with a seven year old, right. You're really working with the parents and caregivers on building better attachments bonds, helping develop skills, engaging in play for the development of the child. There are children, unfortunately, who are born into situations or even conditions sometimes, where their emotional regulation and their development can be impacted by the circumstances that they're in. So as an organization, we try to make sure that we work with professionals, parents and caregivers to do the best that they can do to support the development of their children. And that's what we talk about, the mental development. So there are children who are born under a lot of highly stressful situations. There are children that are born in traumatic situations, unfortunately, and there's children who are born with all different type of mental ability statuses that we want to make sure that no matter what the case is, we try to have at least an answer or assist people to the best of our ability to make sure that they feel empowered, equipped and somewhat competent in taking care of their children.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: And what kind of mental issues do you generally see when you're working with people, kids from those ages, from mental illness to 24?
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say that what we ultimately see probably the most of is anxiety. Anxiety has been on the rise. We're seeing this in younger children who are elementary school age and toddlers. They're just anxious. There's a lot going on. They're responding. They're hyper vigilant.
Sometimes with kids when they have a lot of traumatic experiences or anxious experiences, some of their behaviors are like bed, wedding, things like that. So we're noticing high levels of anxiety. Some people have been able to correlate that to the experience of the pandemic and what we've gone through over the last three to four years.
But I think that it's a combination of that and just where the stress is amongst society and what's happening within family and community dynamics.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: So can you talk a little bit about what type of support you do give people with mental health issues, with the people that have them?
[00:08:24] Speaker A: So typically, what ends up happening is a parent or caregiver would give us a call, and either they're looking for just resources or they're looking to help navigate a situation. So we have staff that will do both of those things. So if they're like, hey, my child's struggling with behaviors that I've never seen before, we'll ask a few questions to kind of get an idea what they may be. And the child may be depressed, they may have suicidal ideation.
They may just have some generalized anxiety. They may have OCD. They may have some compulsive and obsessive disorder pieces as well.
And what we do is we try to match them to therapists or treatment that makes the most sense to that family or that dynamic. If an individual is coming to us for the services directly or for help. Sometimes we'll go to, like, an IEP meeting, or we'll help try to connect to the young person's school because the parent hasn't or the caregiver hasn't been successful, to make sure that they're following, they make sure that the one, the school staff know what's happening, and we're connecting them to the school. Or that if a young person does have an IEP or a 504 plan an IEP is an Individual Education Plan for folks who are not familiar with that language. And a 504 plan is a plan that helps with accommodations for children who may have all different types of things happening. So what we'll do is be advocates in that way and help to make sure that those young people are getting the things that the school has said that they're going to offer.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: So what about the people who are before school age? How do you help them?
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, so in that work, we have a department called our Infant and Early Childhood Department. And what we do is we contract with over 25 what we call we call them consultants, but they're mental health professionals, and they work through either schools or early learning centers or sometimes even in home child daycare centers. And they work with the parent caregivers and providers who are in those areas to identify issues that may come up with children to help build those skills, what happens with those children and also offer ways of play and engagement to help with the development of those children. Those children aren't quite into school just yet, but they are in daycare centers, things of that nature, so they're in places and spaces and we usually are called to help facilitate some of that development and help identify some of the challenges that those children may be seeking.
Also those folks that we contract with will meet with parents and caregivers too to do similar work and help them build the capacity and skills of what may be going on. If we ever identify that it's something beyond just the adjustments or the skills that the providers can offer in their locations, we will refer out so that there's additional treatment for those families to receive as well. So we do try to just make sure that people are getting the best help that they can based on the circumstances they're going through.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Do you have parent groups that parents can get involved with if they're finding they're having difficulties and that they maybe need to have some kindred spirits they can connect with or compare ideas with?
[00:11:57] Speaker A: Great question. We just started literally the month of November has been our first launch of our parent groups. They're not open to just anyone, like if you call and need it. We're working in partnership with other organizations that already have families that they're engaging with to offer groups. But as we go, we are soliciting funding to have a more open group where if anyone calls and says, hey, I have a teenager who's struggling with ADHD myself, I'm struggling with some stress, I would love to come on a Tuesday evening for a parenting group. We want to get to that level, but we're not quite there yet. It's one of my goals and hopes that we will be there within the next six months or so as we're soliciting some funding to make sure that we can offer that service to community as best as we can.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Let's talk about support for teachers, because you talk about support for school staff and going in on maybe IEPs, but I feel like teachers have really had a hard time in the classroom and it could be for a number of things. But is there anything that you do to help teachers directly in the classroom?
[00:13:11] Speaker A: So outside of the trainings that we do that's, our main way of engaging with teachers is making sure that we're offering just strategies and support for a lot of those challenges they are dealing with on a consistent basis. That's the furthest extent from our organization standpoint that we do. And you're right, teachers are going through it. Teachers have an extreme demand on them currently where they're being asked to do way more than just instruct academic lessons teachers are being mental health therapists to a certain extent, social workers, case managers, parent advocates. They're doing a lot. They're doing a lot and they're trying really hard and they are getting burnt out. The field is struggling right now due to the demand. But I think one of the best things that my organization can do, and I think just in general, to support teachers, is we have to engage community and the communities where these schools are located, whether the people have children in them or not and the parents and caregivers where their children attend the schools to be engaged to assist as much as possible with some of the things that are happening within the school buildings. It's not just the teachers fault that we're in this situation. They're dealing with a lot. Like, I pay a lot of attention to what's happening in schools. Having a children's mental health organization, we try to stay within the know as best as possible.
A lot of these teachers are breaking up fights and they're dealing with just a lot of behavioral issues and concerns. And I really think that highlights where we are in society where so many young people are not at school just to learn, but there's other concerns and issues that are going on, whether that's due to trauma or stress. Our teachers need as much support as possible. And I think that one of the ways to do that is by calling community in and saying, hey, we need your help to make sure that every young person is one prepared to learn in school has the tools. They need and also setting a standard that this is an opportunity to learn and to grow together and not a place where a lot of these unfortunate situations are happening, like the school fights and things of that nature. Because what that does is it takes away from the students who are there and they are paying attention and trying to learn, but the teacher has to break up fights or arguments or things like that. It makes it very difficult. So teachers are dealing with a lot. They're wearing many hats right now.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: So I want to talk about that just for a minute because of the classroom environment. And I wonder if you feel like that has gotten better or worse. In general, teachers have changed with how they both do deal with discipline and how they're allowed to deal with discipline.
I came from the realm of things where I saw a teacher pull a student from the classroom and slam them against the lockers. Now, I'm not necessarily condoning that, but that student settled down, sure. But I will say that's an extreme right now. It's like the teacher can hardly do anything in the classroom. This has very much turned the tables with who is really in charge. Is the teacher in charge? Is a student in charge? How are they being given the tools to handle this? And what can they do when things are getting complicated?
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. The era that you come from, where the teacher can slam the kid against the locker, that error is way gone. And now you see students slamming teachers against the locker.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: That's what I mean. And it's like, where do we go here?
The teachers don't have a lot of leeway to do things, so what happens here?
[00:17:12] Speaker A: No, and honestly, I don't think either approach is good.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Absolutely not.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Should be slammed against the locker. Right. But I think we cross a threshold of disempowerment of teachers and their authority. And we've crossed a threshold in empowering young people to have voice and choice, which is not a bad thing. But I think what has happened is we've allowed so much negative behaviors in schools, communities, et cetera, that at this point in time, the teachers are disempowered, discouraged, kind of their wits in. I give teachers a lot of credit to stay within the profession. A lot of people have left. But there are teachers who do believe in the education of children, and they're sticking with it even though their jobs are tough. And we have this battle that happens within school buildings where you have the educators and teachers versus the Admin. And the Admin are dealing with the things on the community level, and the community is going against the school. So you have this kind of triangulation thing happening. And at the end of the day, the people who end up suffering the most are the kids, because no one is learning when these dynamics are happening in so many school buildings.
You asked about teachers. What tools are they given? They're given a lot of strategies. They're given a lot of frameworks, they're given a lot of harm reduction models. And I forgot, there's one thing called CPI, which is I think it's conflict prevention intervention, where they're given these tools to help reduce these situations. But the kids aren't getting any tools.
The young people aren't being given anything. There's a lot of things that are also being taken out of schools that I think were probably bad ideas that we've let go on too long. Like recess? Yes, like recess is a huge thing. There's a lot of kids who don't have recess anymore. Like that outlet of play and engagement.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Right. And that was your 15 minutes of mental get away from that, you know what I mean?
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. For the teachers and runs around the.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Playground and climb the chains of the swings and do everything that just steam outlet. Absolutely.
So then what happens there? What are you suggesting for the schools? It seems like there's a combination of things to go back to. I feel like recess has got to be there or some kind of break.
And teachers have to be allowed to remove students to have a little more power to be able to control their.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Class through and there needs to be a place for those students to go too. Like in school. Suspension is another thing that I've seen a lot of schools have moved away from.
A lot of schools have moved away from suspending students. Sometimes there are young people that are so disruptive that they cannot be in the school building, but then the counternarrative is, well, they can't be home because they're not learning. Well, they're not learning at school either, and they're preventing twelve other kids in the class from learning as well. So what do we do?
So when you asked about solutions, I think there are some things that we used to do, but I really think we need to meet the demands of current education and be more creative in how we do educate our students. I think we have too many students in the classroom, but that's due to not having enough teachers. I think that we don't have enough physical movement for the younger children.
And I think that for the older children, I would say Eigth grade and up, a lot of those children are just not academically stimulated. So I think we need to change some of the ways we do some of the learning. Not all of it. I think you're not going to change much math, you're not going to change much biology and science. But are there other ways for us to engage in learning opportunities? So kids do actually care and do want to learn those things? There are young people that care. I don't want to make it sound so doom and gloom, but I think the biggest thing is we have to invite communities into school buildings and say, hey, this is what's happening with our children. We need to do better. We need your help in making sure that some of these behavioral concerns can be brought down because there's such a disruption now to so many school buildings that the learning is becoming tougher and tougher to deal with. I'm a father. I have three daughters, ten, seven and two. My ten and seven year old are in elementary school.
We were very intentional about putting them in schools that had smaller class sizes. Very intentional about schools that had very clear disciplinary practices. So if young people did get out of control or out of hand, there was very clear expectations of what were going to happen. And my kids are doing well in school. They don't run into many issues. There are still things that happen. Kids get into the fights and disagreements and stuff.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Oh yeah, but that's happened since the beginning of time.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Exactly. But there's very clear standards and protocols what happens next when those things take place and those things get handled. And we don't see some of the issues that we see in other schools. But again, myself, my wife, we had to be very intentional in the type of school we wanted our children to be in and how much involvement. They also required from us to be a part of that school as well. So I think that there is hope, but I think we have to be very honest and we have to be very intentional about shifting how schooling is done so that these young people do have an opportunity to learn in a healthy way.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: So I try not to dwell on this too much, but it is especially in this particular discussion, I feel it is quite relevant.
Can you discuss a little bit about how your work changed, how Macma's work changed during the pandemic? Because I do believe that made quite a splash on how things went for mental health issues.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Just like many organizations, agencies and companies, we went remote, we continued to work.
The scary part was I wasn't here during this time, but I can speak towards what happened because I was one of the speakers. We were planning a big conference in Duluth, Minnesota, and in person, over 1200 people to attend. Pretty big deal. And then the pandemic kicks off, really in March. The conference was in April and we had to pivot. And luckily we had a little bit of a know how to utilize zoom and take things online because the organization did a little bit of that prior to the pandemic even forming. So there was a mad rush to change the conference from an in person to a virtual conference, which we were able to do. But we lost a lot of folks who were like, we don't know what's happened with this pandemic, we need to save our money, we're going to have to ask for a refund. So we took a bit of a hit financially.
We decided we still had to pay rent, utilities though, so we still have bills to pay. So we had to make some adjustments financially as an organization. So that was a big thing, which meant that there were some services and things that we previously offered to families and young people that we weren't able to do during the pandemic. And those things had to wait.
And I would say probably in 20, 21, 22 when I came on board, we were gearing back up to servicing folks, but just doing it from a hybrid model. And that changed things. We had to focus a lot on our staff well being. And some staff realized that this wasn't the work that they wanted to do. They were looking for different life purposes as far as employment, and they moved on. So that was a big change to lose some staff. We also learned that we can do our jobs remotely.
A lot of people realize that, hey, we can actually operate this organization, not in person. But what ends up happening there is you lose a little bit of the morale from your team, like you lose a little bit of that team building when everybody's operating from a video screen.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Right?
[00:25:32] Speaker A: So the workplace culture has shifted and changed as an organization as well. We're currently still in a hybrid model.
I'm in the office today. There's a few people here, but on a busy day now is about eight people in the office versus the full 20 that we have.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Do you feel like the numbers of mental illness issues increased, though? Everyone was at home and all the school kids were at home. And how did you feel that? How did that affect the numbers?
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah, one thing that did happen during the pandemic is we received more phone calls from parents, caregivers, and individuals seeking help, asking questions, just basic mental health questions. They're explaining symptoms that they have or things that they're struggling with on the phone to us and asking us, is something wrong with them. Now, in my organization, there's only about three of us that actually have mental health clinical training. So we're not here to diagnose people. We're not here to even do therapy. So people are reaching out for all this help, and we're referring, referring, referring. And at one point, we kind of almost had a hotline because that's how frequently people were reaching out to us for assistance, where we were just listening to what people's needs were and trying to connect them with the most appropriate services.
So that definitely happened is that the needs of folks just exploded during the pandemic. And in this mental health world, we've known for a while that we didn't have enough therapists just in general to serve people. We didn't have enough therapists with diverse backgrounds to serve different communities from a representation standpoint. And what the pandemic did was it forced so many people to say, hey, we need to get better with our mental and emotional health. We need to go talk to someone. And it created this high demand for therapy services, but the supply wasn't there to meet the demand. There was not enough, and there still isn't enough therapists out there. So a lot of people have waitlists and things of that nature because so many people are focusing on their well being. So I think it's also forced our organization to get a little bit more creative in figuring out ways to help people develop skills and habits and mind frames and mindsets and skill sets to take better care of themselves. Because we know that there's a good chance that if this is the first time you've ever gone to therapy, you might be waiting two to three months before you see someone. So how can we give you something to just help with the day to day right now? And that's some of the work that we've been doing internally.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: I want to ask you if you think or feel that children's mental health is getting more accepted to talk about in society. I feel like not too long ago, it was sort of an embarrassment or people didn't talk about it as much or it was just kind of a taboo subject for whatever reason, especially depending on the cultures that you grew up in. Do you think it's getting more acceptable in society for someone to talk about their mental health?
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Absolutely.
And I think that actually scares a lot of adults that we are openly talking about mental health, especially in the virtual world, in the social media world. One of the more popular social media sites known as TikTok right now, over the last few years has had young people openly talking about their experiences with many different mental health diagnosis.
And it's also created almost communities of folks who are identifying with their levels of depression or anxiety or other disorders that they may have been given. Or we've seen some young people self diagnosing themselves as well.
I think there's some pros and some cons here when it comes to the heightened awareness. The pros are, yes, young people are acknowledging that something's not right and they're acknowledging that, hey, it's okay, that if I do have a mental health disorder, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world for me. I can still live my life, I can still get the help that I need and I can keep moving forward. I think that's amazing. The cons with it is people are labeling and identifying themselves as their disorders. And I think that that's where adults and professionals come in to make sure that young people still identify with who they are as an individual who lives with the disorder. Not that the disorder is right, because when you're identifying like that, and this may be more of a personal note from myself and my own experience, but when people identify themselves with their diagnosis, sometimes they're limiting their capabilities to be better, to have more holistic lives, to keep moving forward. And that can lead to depressive thoughts and feelings and shame and guilt and things of that nature.
And it shouldn't have to be like that for folks. And I think what has happened is this open awareness has created just different lanes for people to take with their understandings of the mental health conditions that they may have. So again, this is why professionals like myself and organizations like mine and then parents and caregivers, it's important to be informed to help those young people navigate a little bit better with their understandings of mental health. But again, I think it is good that the awareness is there because now there's an opportunity to do something about it where before there was so much shame and guilt that young people would just suffer by themselves.
And I think that we've moved the needle on that a little bit more. And I hope that we can keep moving forward, that young people can say, hey, I have depression and I'm still happy at times, I have my down moments, but I'm still living my life and I want to go off in the world and. Go to college or travel or go to the military, whatever they want to do. I hope that that's where we end up once this thing is all said and done, is that young people see their diagnosis as just an experience and not a label.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Are you experiencing that there's a difference with how young people or children's mental health is viewed as opposed to adults mental health issues?
[00:32:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot more compassion for young people than adults. I think a lot of adults it's like, and this is sad, I think this says a lot about our society as well, is when adults are struggling, what do they do to get themselves in that situation is a very common type of response. It's like, oh, that person's struggling with addiction and that's why they act the way they act, or wow, get your anxiety under control, or they minimize people's depression. And I think that adults have a lot less leeway than children, a lot less compassion than children when it comes to their mental and emotional health. I do think that adults are seeking therapy a lot more than they used to as well, which is good, but I think there's more of a societal blame on an adult for their mental health condition versus a young person.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Interesting.
I want to talk a little bit about the police. It's been a fairly hot topic in some of the surrounding discussions and I want to know if you feel like police are receiving the right training for mental health issues.
Are they being trained for mental health issues and how that's working?
Yeah, go ahead and good question.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think this is a sticky one for several reasons. So I'm going to answer your questions directly. I'm going to give you the short answer and I'm going to give you the long answer. So the short answer is, are police receiving the right trainings for mental health? No.
Are police officers responding to mental health incidents in the best manner? Collectively, I would say no. But I also would say that that's not what police officers are trained to do in the first place.
So how would they know? They were never supposed to. They're there to stop crime, not handle mental health crisis, which is why we've had services. And this is really important. So if any legislators or politicians or people who have influence are listening, I really hope that what I'm going to say connects here. Because this is why we really need better resources for things like the Cope line and these other mental health practices, because we need professionals responding to those crisis that are mental health professionals and not professionals who are there to stop criminals. Because mental health isn't not necessarily a crime. There are criminals who do have mental health issues, but those are two separate things. And we don't want police officers responding to mental health crisis unless it's a life or death situation and it's an emergency.
I've been in dynamics as a therapist where I've had to call the copeline and unfortunately we had to make a transfer of a young person to be committed as a young adult to be taken to the hospital for 72 hours hold. And the only way we could get that person to hospital was to call the police. And when the police came, they came and they treated this person like they were a criminal. They put them in handcuffs. There was no questions asked. There was a tussle. It was one of the worst therapeutic experiences of my life that I've ever seen.
For me, I understood why they did what they did because that's how they handle criminal situations. But when you have a mental health dynamic or situation, there's a different approach. There's an easier way to do things than dealing with criminals. And I think just like the teacher situation, we're asking police officers to do so much more than what their jobs initially entail because of the dynamics have gotten so bad. And we have to put resources into better mental health crisis responses so that the police officers aren't the ones that are responding to it. The other thing that I will mention about police officers that I think we don't give enough honest and open acceptance to is that they're dealing with a lot too. I know police officers and I've done ride alongs. I used to do anti gun violence work in North Minneapolis. So I work directly with the police officers for a lot of that stuff. And police officers, they might have an eight to twelve hour shift and they're going for a crisis call to crisis call to crisis call back to back to back. I mean, they can literally go from a car accident to a burglary to a domestic violence situation to a shooting and then boom, they get the mental health call. They've seen so much trauma in the last four or 5 hours and then they get to the mental health call and someone's behaving in a way that the police officers aren't tolerating. They want this person to stop the behavior, stop doing what you need to do and either move along or you're going to get arrested and taken down to the station. And at that point the patience level is low, the anxiety level is high, the stimulation from all those things you just seen is high. They don't have time to do a therapy session with the person whose behaviors may be erratic. And then a police officer responds, as police officers do, and then the person responds and they don't want to get arrested. And now a tussle takes place and the police officers rough someone up and then they're on the news and they're being called racist or they're being called demonic. This is what all police officers do when it's like we don't take into account what has the full context of what they're dealing with as well. Police officers have some of the worst jobs. A lot of police officers end up with addiction issues and divorces and all types of things because their jobs take so much out of them. So when you take a police officer who has a lot of toxic stress and you take an individual who's having a cris situation, it is a ticking time bomb altogether. So we have to be very mindful of that as well. I don't believe that police officers should respond to mental health issues at all. I think that we need a whole separate type of response unit for those.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: So I might argue this point. Yes, go for it, if I could, that some things like that could be construed as criminal activity. You wouldn't be doing that if there wasn't something mentally unhealthy going on. How do you separate? So let's take question, let's take rape.
That's a bad thing, but if you were a sound mind, would you be doing that?
[00:38:57] Speaker A: Probably not.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: So then what's the answer to how do you some of these things?
Clearly if somebody is doing some of these things, I'm excluding like bank robberies or things surely things like that, but serious things that you probably wouldn't be doing if you were of sound mind and had a job and had a stable family and even sometimes people who do have jobs were surprised at what they do. There's clearly some mental health issues. So then how do you separate that? That could be really tricky, I would think.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think that something as heinous as rape, that is a criminal matter and police should be involved whether the person has mental health issues or not. And I do think that people who do do heinous crimes like that do have challenging mental health status. The same things with school shootings or mass shootings and things of that nature. I think there is a component of mental health that plays a role in that, but at that point that person has drawn the line that has become a criminal matter and police should be involved. When I was speaking, I was thinking of situations that I've seen like I've been in a store before. Let's say you're at your local Target or Walmart and someone's just like causing chaos. They're yelling, they may be knocking things like they're obviously having a mental health cris. Something's not right right now. They're dysregulated. Is that a police matter or can we call a mental health team to come and try to defuse this situation? Those are the situations that I'm thinking. Those are more common than some of the real heinous things that end up happening. But those heinous things are very sensationalized too. So we have to keep that in mind because they're so just like sad and just crazy dynamics that take place that, yeah, we do hear a lot more about those and see them but we do have folks, they may be at a bus stop like we have Metro Transit Police. A lot of times they're responding to people who may be homeless. Those folks may have mental health issues that could probably be a mental health professional that can respond to that instead of a police officer. So those are the things that I'm talking about. But when the issue crosses over to a serious criminal matter, massive shooting, rape, things of that nature, anything involving a weapon, police definitely should be involved. But if it's someone who needs to be diffused or talked down or things of that nature, I think a mental health professional is definitely equipped to work there.
And some departments have actually done this. I think the police officers can work with these teams and collaborate as well. And there can be kind of like if it's a fire, yeah, a police may respond, but then the firefighters show up and they take over.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: So there can be some kind of crossover and some collaboration there as well.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: I like that mixture because that feels to me like then one or the other could step up if they needed to and they could decide at the time what the situation warranted. Because I could see that there could be really difficult scenarios that, yes, this is a mental health issue, but you have now crossed the line and so now you have to be treated more like a suspect or more like a criminal. Sadly, I want to dive into because this is so common now, that I feel like social platforms and social media have really dominated the especially not always, but especially the younger person.
I don't see kids going out and playing as much anymore. They're sitting on their computers, they're sitting on their iPhones, they're sitting on know, Facebook, not even Facebook, right. TikTok and all those other goofy things that I don't even want to get 3ft from or near because there's no monitoring. So I'm curious to know how you feel that has and can affect children's mental health.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it definitely has impacted the mental health of children. I mean, I even see it in my own children sometimes too, that there is an addictive quality to devices children can get locked in. I've seen my daughter go, all my daughters at one point in time go from jumping around, playing, having a good time, to okay, you can have some iPad time. And they're just silent, they're just zoned out, they're just looking at the screen and they're not even aware of what's going on around them. So I think what the devices do is, I don't want to say it stunts their social. I think socially it has an impact on their development. I don't know if it stunts it or changes it, but it doesn't develop the same way that yourself or myself may have grew up who did not have access to those type of devices. When we were little kids, we were able to go outside and play. And you're right, there are tons of kids who don't play.
It's pretty funny. I recently moved to a new neighborhood and the first day of school we moved before the summer. So during the summer I don't see any kids really outside. They're not riding bikes or anything. My kids are because I try to push them outside as much as possible, right? And then the school year rolls around and all of a sudden there's all these bigger kids and I'm like, Where did these kids come from? I didn't see them at all the first few months of summer and the first day of school pops up, so they're all at the bus stop and I'm like, oh, these kids are probably in the house playing video games. Or they might have had jobs, they might have been in activities, but they were never outside, just hanging out. And that's so different than my childhood. And I think that that's one thing that happens is the social dynamic changes. And it doesn't mean that these kids are not social. They're just not social the way that we used to be. They still connect, they still talk to each other online.
They FaceTime and they chat through various different apps and they do all that stuff, but their socialization is very different. But I think where the harm may come in for these children and we'll learn this here pretty soon as the generation Z starts to get into the workplace is how do they socially function with people when it's not just online or it's a combination and that's when.
[00:45:36] Speaker B: We'Re going to see the difference.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: It's not just a game, right?
And I've seen businesses try to gamify their work so that these younger people can keep up with productivity.
I don't have the capacity to do that in my own work. So that's going to be something as I get older and my businesses go that I'm have to hire somebody to do if that's what we have to do. But it's like we almost have to change the productivity into a game like format for a generation to keep up, which is a little weird because it's weird because we didn't have to do it as we grew up.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: I'm sure that I'm going to be told I'm old school, but I feel like that is so limiting. It's limiting and I feel like it also narrows your scope and your ability to deal with things if it's not in a certain format or if it's not in a certain way that has to keep your attention.
Am I way off with this?
[00:46:38] Speaker A: No, I think you're right. I think it also creates a level of social anxiety. So if you don't know how to be in these spaces, you kind of get anxious and that's where the mental health piece comes back in. And that social anxiety can lead to you not being able to communicate effectively. You might lose opportunities.
Some people may not even physically be able to be in space. They might get so anxious that they have to remove themselves from the space. And what happens when that space is a classroom or it is a workplace or it's a social function? That's something that you probably should be at, like a wedding or what if it's these things that these life things that happen that we want people to experience, but their anxiety is so high that they can't that's when it becomes problematic?
Like I said, we're not quite there yet, because if we're honest, the Internet has only been around for a little under 30 years. But those young people who were born during this time, they are coming to age into the adult ages now. So we're going to really figure this thing out here pretty soon.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: I'm curious, Brandon. Who funds Macma?
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Great question. So we do have some funding from the state, some grants from the state. We do get funding from foundations as well. But for the most part, we're kind of unique as a nonprofit that we're able to generate revenue through our professional development training. So a lot of our funding comes from the folks who support our organization and come to us to get their continuing education credits. That's where the majority of our funding comes from. So we kind of function like a social enterprise a bit in that manner, but we're always happy to receive donations from folks. We're always happy to build new relationships with funders. So we don't necessarily need it to be the revenue that we generate to lead us. But so far, that's what we're trending in for our funding. Yes.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: So here's a question for you.
Prescription. I'm going to emphasize prescribed drugs. Good or bad? Does it make things more complicated?
[00:48:51] Speaker A: Good or bad?
I'm kind of split down the middle on prescription medications.
If you asked me that question, if you asked Brandon that question ten years ago, I would have said bad, absolutely not. And that's why I didn't go to school to become a psychiatrist. But my mentality has changed over the years because I have seen how when people do find the right combinations of medicine, of medication and psychotropic medication let's be more specific, that it can help them progress in life. But I think what has happened is that the medication, the industry, has exploded so vastly. And I think that the field of psychiatry is another one of those fields that probably needs to be relooked at, like the mental health in the education field, like we talked about earlier, that so many people are getting so many different prescribed medications that they never really figure out what their right regimen is for them. And medications take a while for you to figure it out. I think it's like three months on average to know if it's going to be effective. And some people don't want to be that patient. They're just like, this is too much.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: It's the generation instant gratification.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Exactly. Thank you. Exactly. So then they'll go see their psychiatrist, hey Doc, this is not working. And then the doctor says, we'll try this one instead and then we got to change the other two because they don't match with this one. And then you're on this cycle of always trying medications and not getting better. I think that piece of the psychiatrist field needs to be figured out because people aren't being helped overall. I have seen people where when they found the right combination of meds, they have had tremendous progress in their lives and they've done way better than they were when they weren't on the med. So I do believe that they can be helpful. But I think the way that the medicine is dispensed and I think also the engagement that a lot of psychiatrists have with their clients is so pass and go and transactional that sometimes people are being prescribed medicine without really having the full context of what's going on.
[00:51:02] Speaker B: Long term, maybe.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: Absolutely.
I read a study, I shouldn't even quote this because I might be wrong, but I remember it said like the average psychiatry visit was like under ten minutes. It's like they're in, they're out, and there's no time to build a relationship or poor or anything really when there's such a touch and go exchange.
[00:51:23] Speaker B: Right, well, we're running out of time. But I do want to touch a minute on something that is really coming up fast, I believe, and that is AI. It's getting so much into everything.
Do you see it playing a part or is it already playing a part in mental health issues or apps that you might use? If so what?
[00:51:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't see it playing a part just yet, but I can see it coming. So, for example, one thing that mental health professionals really struggle with because the demand to see so many clients is high is their paperwork. And I have heard of some apps that are working on AI solutions to help with the documentation of sessions for mental health therapists. Now, I don't like that because I think that that creates a very general, a very template like response to what each client is going to go with. So everyone's notes are going to pretty much mirror the same until the AI has more human pieces to it and it can add these other factors. So what that means is, and this may be getting a little too nerdy in the mental health world, but what that means is when you're doing your case notes and your treatment plans, it's just going to be a bunch of templated information. It's really not going to be based on the individual client.
It's probably going to be normed on the actual diagnosis or diagnoses that the individual has. That does not help the client. It helps the provider get the work done. But at the end of the day, is it really a treatment plan designed for the client or is it designed for the general diagnosis? That's one way that AI is definitely going to have an impact on the mental health and the medical world if we were going to be honest.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:53:13] Speaker A: Those computer systems and those softwares that medical providers use, they're going to just normalize based on the best practices for the medication, for the diagnosis or whatever may come. So that's on the professional end, I think, not the user end, but the customer end or the people who have the diagnosis. I think what's going to happen on that end is a lot of people are going to be seeking information through AI and again, they're going to get this general templated information about the condition that they're dealing with that may not fit who they are, may not fit their cultural customs or anything. And they're going to lose a piece of themselves, especially as I talked about what I talked about earlier, if they're identifying with the mental health disorder. So now if I'm a person who has depression, I'm going to go to my favorite AI app, type in what should I do about my depression and it's going to give me templated things to do that might not fit who I am as a person, how I identify my culture or anything. But the AI told me to do it. So I'm going to do this instead of leaning in and learning about myself. Yeah, right.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: Kind of a dangerous concept there.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Now I do think the AI tool is cool, I'm going to be honest. There's some things that you can use with some of this AI stuff. It's really interesting, but I get a little weary when it just generalizes everything.
There is something about the unique pieces of individuals that we need to keep about being human and not just so general.
[00:54:47] Speaker B: All right, I'm going to do something to you. Unfortunately, I only give you three minutes to answer. And this is probably complex bunch of questions, but how big of a problem? Let's jump back to social media because I feel like that can be a big issue. How big of a problem is bullying on there and should parents be monitoring and where can they go to find out more about mental health issues and get help about how to help themselves?
[00:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah, bullying on the internet is a huge issue because it looks different than bullying off the internet. There's a lot of exposing and teasing and code language that happens on the internet that many parents and caregivers probably don't even understand what's happening.
So what I would recommend too is one, go to parent groups that are on the internet. We could use the internet against the internet that talk about these things. There are parents that talk about them. There is an organization that I'll shout out called Live More, Screen Less, and they help advocate for parents and caregivers. It's called live. More screen less. Check them out. They have all different types of resources and tools. They do talk about bullying directly, periodically. US at Macma, we'll put things out if we have a speaker or trainer who's focusing on there. So we like to get the most updated tips on how to deal with some of these things as well, so you can check us out too. But live more, screen less is a good organization to go to.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: Thank you, Brandon. I really appreciate your time, your wealth of knowledge, and I wish you luck for getting funds and doing what you need to do.
[00:56:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you for having me, and anytime you all would like to bring me back, I would love to come back onto the show. Thank you.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: Thank you so much. This has been Disability and progress. The views expressed on this show are not necessarily those of KFAI or its Board of Directors. This week we were speaking with executive director Brandon Jones. Brandon is the executive director of Macmh Minnesota Association for Children's Mental Health.
My name is Sam, and I'm the host of this show. Charlene Doll is my research woman, and Miguel Vargas was my engineer, and Erin is my podcaster. If you'd like to be on our email list, you can email us about what's coming up, or if you have any ideas, you may email us about that as well at
[email protected]. Thanks so much for listening. Goodbye.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: Hey, guys.
Dot, dot, dot.
