Speaker 0 00:00:04 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:55 Hello and thank you for joining disability and progress, where we bring you insights into ideas about and discussions on disability topics. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thanks to Charlene doll for being my research team and also for assisting with putting together this show tonight. Thank you to Annie Harbo for engineering tonight. Our topic is WICO and web accessibility. We're speaking with Ann Rodriguez and also president of Waco Lynn women getting evening, ladies evening, leaving SueAnn. It's been so long. I just have to, I have to break out slightly cause I know her. It's good to, it's good to see you. And um, I want to talk to Nate about we go and I know you've been involved with them for a little while. And so, um, can you please, at least both of you, I think I want to hear from each of you, give me a little bit of history of your background and how you got two weeks ago. Well, I'll let Lynn talk about the company first. How about that? Yeah, she can tell me how that, how you decided to do that, Lynn.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 Sure. Um, thanks so much for having us, Sam, we really, really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. Uh, basically the company was stemmed from work that I was doing for the Minnesota department of transportation that started back in 2008. Uh, I was brought on to men dots Americans with disabilities act transition plan. And that time, um, Mendota was seeking to inventory and update, uh, infrastructure all across the state, which would be like curb ramps. And so it was physical infrastructure to make sure that it was accessible to people living with disabilities that had been a real challenge for the agency and it was a new effort. And I had a background communications and federal program coordination and web development. And essentially I was brought in because the lead on the project knew that I had grown up in a family with people living with disabilities and that I had a web design skills. And she said, do you think you could figure out how to make information on this effort accessible on our website? Well, I, at that point in time had never even encountered a screen reader.
Speaker 3 00:03:34 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:34 It's very unfortunate. It's, it's a long story. I'll try to encapsulate it, but very fortunate that the advisory board that Mendota had brought onto that effort, uh, was comprised entirely of people living with a wide variety of disabilities. And I asked if I could go into their homes and watch how they used our website. So I could figure out how to do this. We became friends and we realized that we were developing a method for website accessibility, but we were also developing unemployment opportunity for people living with disabilities to have a real say in what they needed and how website and digital accessibility could be done for them. So some of the people that were part of that men dot advisory board are actually part of our advisory board here at WICO. And we formed a company in 2011 and uh, along the way came Sue Ann Rodriguez. So there's your segue, Suzanne. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:04:40 Thank you, Lynn. So a little more than seven years ago, I would say I was, um, attended graduate work and I had taken a usability test graduate course. So, um, you know, that's basically what, where people serve you doing different tasks on a website or some kind of electronic venue. And um, so I got experience with, with that. And then after graduate school, I call, um, a, uh, a student who I went to college with. Um, well I could go she'd contacted me. And she was like, you know, can you do his appeal, your test for this company I'm working for? I'm not sure I was, I was on Sylvan graduate school at the time. So I was like, okay. And so she's like, you know, Suzanne, you know, there a real, uh, E merging a S a S assistance for people with living with bilities doing this kind of testing. So I was like, okay. So I went online and did a search for like accessibility. You use appeal, any companies here in Minnesota. And one of the holes is where I've found. We go. And I guess you could say the rest is history at that point. Um, we are having this awards, ceremony, money for the company and it's his staff next week. And I just got reminded that I be with, we come now for six years. So, wow. Yes. So what does WICO stand for?
Speaker 2 00:06:35 Well, that's a really good question. And it's actually a story people often ask. Um, my last name is wireman and when we were, I am the first board of advisors were, I was constructing our first accessibility test platform. I was meeting monthly, I actually twice a month with this advisory board. And they said, well, we need to name this company. And I said, well, I don't really care what you name it. I just want to make sure we have a product. And so I remember the brainstorming session we had where we said, we really, Lynn, we really think we should use your name because where men, it sounds solid. And so we looked up what it meant and where men in juror is a German name that soldier or protector. Ah, and so they said, we think we should call it the, where men collaborative. So that is our legal name, the where men collaborative, and one of our advisory board members, um, very early, very talented young man named Chris Backstrom was an artist said we could shorten it and call it WICO at that point in time, we thought we co it sounds like our company. And so that are doing business as is WICO accessibility services. So that's where it came from.
Speaker 3 00:07:57 Excellent. So talk a little bit about what services your company we go provides.
Speaker 2 00:08:06 Sure. Uh, we, uh, really the primary product that we offer right now that most of our clients come to us for initially is what is called manual accessibility audits. And I think Suzanne, how about if I touch on these and then you can maybe go into a bit more detail. Sure. Okay. So manual accessibility audits are basically like a report card that allows people to understand what they need to fix on their website. And we also provide remedies on how to do it. We also provide a wide variety of consulting, really any way that any client can think of that they might be able to, to need us, whether it's to call us when they're fixing website, when they have questions, if they want us to sit down side by side and show them how one of our screenwriters works on their website, that's fine.
Speaker 2 00:09:03 But then we also, one of the important things we also offer is training because when people understand how website and accessibility impacts real users who live with disabilities, it's much easier for them to understand how to fix it. And they get much more motivated when they realize how that impacts a real human being. So really training, auditing, and consulting are the heart of what SueAnn administers day-to-day I think in her, in her career, but there's also a really important part called usability testing. And our ability testing is conducted entirely by users who live with disabilities. It is a bonafide requirement to be a WICO certified tasks consultant is that you must live with one or more disability than impacts computer use. So we are really providing clients with authentic feedback on how those users interact. Do you want to talk a little bit more about like our WCG and things like that? Okay.
Speaker 3 00:10:13 Wait, I'll get to that in just a minute. I want to just get to a couple more things and then I will go through what SueAnn does. Um, I want to ask what it means when a website, when someone says a website is accessible, what does that really mean?
Speaker 2 00:10:31 Sue Ann, I think that's you.
Speaker 3 00:10:35 I was waiting for you to do that, but okay. So what it means, so I, if we're talking in a general sense, general sense. Yes. So what it means to be accessible in my general sense opinion is that a, an individual can access and interact with all the content, all the different features on a website. So what that means is that a user can use their keyboards access every, every, um, every form, you know, control or field, um, then navigation and you, um, you know, also to be able to access content, you know, kicking to get to the content, can we understand the contents? Not just about kidding, get to it, but can they understand it? And that, to me, in a general sense is what I believe her accessibility is about. And so I know there are standards who decided on the standards. So the standards that you are referring to solve, there is a couple of them. Okay. Um, the first set of standards is the section section five Oh eight and herds. Okay. Those are set by the federal government. Okay. Um, and so those, um, have gone through what they have called a refresh is what they call them. Um, and those standards call apply. These w w what is called the RBC G guidelines for web accessibility, content guidelines. And these particular eyelines have been created by what is known in accessibility industry is the W3C, which is the world wide web <inaudible>.
Speaker 3 00:12:54 Okay. These are private, like industry type of guidelines. They are not law or anything like that, but these guidelines, so however, have been incorporated into like different laws standards, just like I talked about with the section five Oh eight there's other countries that have adopted these guidelines into the third laws and things like that as well. All right. So there, the initials that you listed are not logged themselves, but you say they've been adopted into other things that are laws. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:13:37 I think a little clarification that I could offer is that there are basically two laws in the United States that govern digital accessibility. And the first one is SueAnn mentioned is section five Oh eight of the rehabilitation act of 1973. The law predates the internet, but section five Oh eight was formed after the internet. And that applies to federal government. Um, and one thing that I think people often miss is that it also applies to organizations that accept federal dollars federal program coordinator, and having been through two audits, I can tell you responsibility follows the money, but the one that applies to all of us is the Americans with disabilities act. There is a web requirement for that that was actually about to be released, but the DOJ withdrew those web rules in December of 2017. However, um, I think you would have to ask the white house.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 We do not know why we suspect that it was perceived. It would be better for business if there were no requirements, but what happened was the exact opposite is that the number of lawsuits have gone through the roof because they're the requirement under the ADA, that websites be accessible is still there because anything within public domain counts. Okay. So just to nutshell this for you real quick, the ADA applies to everybody, right? If you put anything out there for public consumption, whether it's a small business, whether it's a big corporation or whether it is your church or your neighborhood watch group, if you've got a website, it, and it's out there for public consumption, it needs to be accessible under the ADA, even though there are no rules to delineate that lawsuits are still being prosecuted under it, section five Oh eight is for federal government or organizations that receive federal dollars. So the WC AIG is a big organization worldwide that came up with really good suggestions. And they were so good that the United States applied it to an update of section five away. And we know that the ADA work rules were basically the same thing as WCG and a lot of countries use WCG now because they're, so they're such good suggestions. Does that help?
Speaker 1 00:16:18 That does. And, um, I want to talk about, I know it is, uh, October is national disability employment awareness month. So I expect that, um, you guys are celebrating that. Absolutely. Um, my wife talk about, I know you have, as you said, a number of people in Waco who have disabilities, does everyone in the company have one,
Speaker 2 00:16:48 Currently only one person in our company does not live with a disability. We are an equal opportunity employer, strong outreach to professionals who live with disabilities. You know, Sam, we should probably mention that today. It was announced that for the second year in a row, we go has been recognized as a leading disability employer by the national organization on disability.
Speaker 1 00:17:11 Yay. So what was the inspiration to, you know, really go after? I mean, just kind of sounds like this was such an easy fit for people with disabilities. Was it because of the whole accessibility with websites thing?
Speaker 2 00:17:28 Well, I think that it really started for me with the fact that I grew up in a family with generations of cognitive disabilities. My older sisters were in the workforce in the 1970s. And I remember when my oldest sister lost her job because she had an epileptic, absence seizure at work suspected. That was it. Um, and all of a sudden they found a reason to let her go, of course, very normal in those days. And I remember my parents' reaction to it. Wasn't, you know, that that was wrong. It was how do we help her figure out how to hide that next time? That's when I met the people that I was working with on the ADA transition plan of men dot, and I saw the opportunity, I thought, you know, there's so much on tap talent here. If other people don't want to hire these amazing people, send them over to us and it'll be a place where people's disabilities can be seen as a way to solve problems as a skill set they're subject matter experts.
Speaker 1 00:18:37 How many, how big is the staff in Waco?
Speaker 2 00:18:41 We just hired some people. So I think we're up to 17 on the internal staff. Now we're a little we're little, but, um, yeah, but only one member does not have a disability.
Speaker 1 00:18:53 And how do people get the training that they need for this? Do you provide it or do they kind of need to have it?
Speaker 2 00:19:01 Well, it depends on which role you're talking about. So the, the toughest role to fill is, uh, so, and by the way, as our director of accessibility services, she's the head of that department and her team is the toughest to fill because there isn't really specific education out there on how to do digital accessibility, diagnosis and remedies. And we have our own, we have our own way of doing it, obviously because we do it disability based. So we tend to look for certain skill sets and aptitudes. Uh, I know that SueAnn looks depending on what she needs. Uh, she looks for people that have, uh, specific skills like co-development skills. Maybe Suzanne, you can speak to that, but on the staff team, we, we just look for people who have talent that fit the roles in public relations and operations and, and sales and customer service.
Speaker 1 00:20:08 I will come back to this if we have time, but, um, I want to get to, um, describing the process. So let's say I'm a company I come in. Um, I'm going to have, you know, you kind of inspect, so to speak my website. So describe the process for assessing a website of an organization to begin with.
Speaker 2 00:20:35 You want to take that one?
Speaker 1 00:20:36 Sure. Um, so what we do is we, we take, um, whatever pages, whatever plus set says
Speaker 3 00:20:48 Or features that our client wants us to inspect as you put it sample, I'll go with that. Okay. And what we do is we go has its own what we call standards of access, which include the section five awaits to standards, the WC G 2.1 version guidelines, which are the most current version right now. And then Waco has our own loose them ones that we believe that those other two, um, entities, uh, do not have, um, uh, standards for airlines for. So we take that list and we verify again, what the company calls standards. We verify them against each page. So for example, I'll give an example if we have like the, a client's home page and there's like, um, our standards, I'm just going to give you a few examples. So our standards is okay, can you access every feature on this webpage with a key board all by itself can check that.
Speaker 3 00:22:17 And then if there's a video on a page, is it with audio? Okay. It's with audio, does it have an audio disc description? Does it have a descriptive transcript, uh, talking, uh, dis uh, a text version, um, talking about what's the, the visual aspects of a video, does it have closed captioning? So I believe at this point, um, there's like 56 particular standards that we check for for every page. Now, they all want to apply to every page, but that's how we would. That's a process that we go through. And if we do identify something as w what we call it, not meeting one of our standards, then we, I, and I, and in the report, we explain exactly what the issue is. And then just like w when said, w we provide a practical recommendation crafted specifically for the, the client and the particular issue that we in counter, where you have this all in the report so that we can provide it to the client after that.
Speaker 1 00:23:41 Wow. Okay. Well, I could see a lot of websites missing
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Things. When you go into talking about, does it have a description of the audio, like everything? Does this mean everything that the audio says must be correct? You know, text told on the website. Does that make sense of what I just said? It's not really a word, but are you, are you asking me if regarding a prerecorded video with audio? Yes. So if there's a video is audio on it and it's, um, even if it's not, if it's, let's just say we had video on, let's just say on our website, if we were to have video and an audio of the show, would it all have to be written out in text too? So for like pod casts, they're I to have a transcript. Okay. Wow. Video with audio. We have video without any audio, like a silent movie on mission. It has to have a text transcript.
Speaker 3 00:25:04 Now, if you have a video with audio, you have some options. Um, it's all dependent on what the WC G has, what they called different, um, levels, level, eight level AA and level AAA. So it's all dependent on which one, which level the client wants to achieve. So for level a, you have the option for, you could either have an audio description, or you can have a descriptive text transcript, but if you want to be leveled, doubling, if you want to achieve that level, you have to have an audio description track for your prerecorded video. Uh, right. Okay. So I know I am actually kind of on borderline of a, because I can bet there's a lot of websites that don't have that
Speaker 2 00:26:21 Well, and I think an important thing Sam to note is that nobody comes out of the shoot and achieves perfection with this right away. That's true. And that there is a lot of ways that we help clients document due diligence while they're working on this. And that there's a lot of ways that we can encourage them to connect with their clients who live with disability to make sure that they're meeting their needs. And, uh, you know, it seems daunting when we talk about it in these terms, but one of the things that I think Suzanne and her team does so well is that they make it approachable and they make it understandable and they make it not overwhelming. Cause it really is a step at a time. And it is possible. We believe that it's possible for anybody from small business to a big corporation to do this.
Speaker 1 00:27:16 Yes. Uh, so I'm guessing some of the most common problems that you would see are like buttons, not labeled, um, things like that. Is there a couple more popular problems that are the most common that you might see of websites not being accessible?
Speaker 3 00:27:36 Yes. Um, my co worker and I there's, there's running a joke between us too on, there is a accessibility issue that we come across a lot and it, we, we define it as an incorrect role and, and what this means, if a client has a link that says something like, um, subscribe to our blog, but they have it as a link. Okay. Well, the purpose of a link is to take a user to a different page or a different place on the page that they're currently residing on. But a lot of clients don't do that. They use a link to, uh, create a, uh, to attach to it a month modal. So you don't want to like, like a pop-up box and it's like, no, that's not the links, purpose links purposes to take a person to a different place on a page or to an other page. And then we also get the other way around where we have clients do it, uh, uh, cold things as a button, but they take them to different pages. So, I mean, that's really basic. Uh, we, we do have ones with like unclear all text. Uh, we have a lot, um, a common practice is that something is not coded properly where you cannot get to it using a keep board or a, the tab key. Um, that that's really common. So those are just a few things.
Speaker 1 00:29:32 Uh, guys, I was just curious, um, you know, one of the common things that I use to hear, but I don't know that I hear it as much anymore. Hopefully it's not still being set out. There was that, Oh, I want my website to look really pretty. And a lot of times they want moving things that make it hard for, um, people with screen readers and stuff to utilize. But they're afraid that if they make their website accessible, it won't be pretty anymore. I'm being a little sarcastic, but is this true? Or can they still have a pretty website and have it accessible and all that? I'll let you take this question.
Speaker 2 00:30:13 Yeah, this is my thing. Okay. So, so probably one of my, one of my favorite idols is, is John Nash, the mathematician, if you saw the movie a beautiful yes, I did. And partly because I live with a major mental illness, um, I was able to, uh, therapy successfully overcome borderline personality disorder. And so I have always admired the way that he lived with his disability by just, you know, acknowledging I am going to hallucinate and I'm going to work around it. But one of the things that I loved that, that he often said is that his disability was simply a math problem. And so I often bring up that when I'm working with designers that say, okay, we know we need to be accessible. And now we're resigned to the fact that we have to have an ugly website. And I get, I, it actually makes me angry to hear that because I say it, the math problem, all it is, is a math problem. And the truth is, is that your website needs to look good because we are not just creating websites for non visual users. We're creating websites for people like me who live with cognitive disabilities and having websites that are attractive and easy to look at and easy to navigate are important for our disability. So I argue it is possible. And not only is it possible it's necessary. So that's my answer.
Speaker 1 00:31:46 What are some other big misconceptions that one has about accessible websites?
Speaker 2 00:31:56 Well, I think that a lot of people think you can't use moving graphics. We CO's first website had a, a photo carousel on it that we made accessible.
Speaker 1 00:32:06 I always thought you couldn't. Oh, that's cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:09 And there, there are ways to make sure that controls are marked, so non-visual users can turn them on and off that images can be identified SueAnn. You probably have some other examples.
Speaker 1 00:32:23 So there are other like misconceptions that, um, like when said a lot of the visuals, like there can't be a map, uh, like one of those surge maps or like a really
Speaker 3 00:32:40 Intensive visual kind of maps back and still be there. Just there just have to find an alternate of a way to present that same infant, impatient for screen reader, users. Um, and there's also a misconception that, you know, Oh, you know, you can't have things high <inaudible> red or something. This thing wishing visually on a page, but you can, you can have some something high lighted in red, but just ensure that it's, this thing was sharable in another way program medically. So that screen readers can get that same type of info mation. Ah, okay. Um, are all problems fixable or are there just some that are beyond fixing when I think you have an example,
Speaker 2 00:33:45 I think that there are some websites that, that are, are, that may be so inaccessible that it is simply more cost effective to start over. So applying accessibility to a website, I often compare to my mother was a seamstress. She was a master seamstress and we'd be like sewing together, a garment incorrectly and deciding, Oh man, we sewed the arms on backwards. Well, by the time you get the garment done, you may have to take apart more than just the arms to get them sewn on. Right. So I think that that sometimes is the case for existing websites. So that's why we really encourage clients who are beginning new websites to not wait until the end to ask us about accessibility, but to get educated about it in the beginning and incorporate it. So when were you thinking of something example that I've used in the past second?
Speaker 3 00:34:44 Well, actually, um, I'll tell you one example. Um, so there was a client who you could tell, uh, they, they, they designed and coded this particular websites for visual mouse users. Um, you could not, you could not access with anything, interact with anything on the page via a key board at all. And all those, all the instructions would say you can et cetera, but Lynn, the other, except when he was, uh, well, I thought you would recall would be the math one. Uh, the one about trying to do the circles.
Speaker 2 00:35:39 Oh, okay. One, one thing that we were one thing that was really difficult to make accessible, that we found a way to make accessible was a learning tool for a major education company. They, it was a, a learning tool module that was bought by large corporations, corporations, and actually well-known universities, Ivy league schools. And it was probably one of the most interesting projects we did because it tied into a learning algorithm in the brain and it involved, um, being able to tap a, um, a space bar and like one tap was, was unsure. Two taps was of, or three, you know, and it populated a visual donut on the screen. And Sue Ann and her team were able to make that accessible to non visual users. Wow. It's yeah. We put our heads together with those developers because they said we need to retain that tapping because it taps into an algorithm and the brain.
Speaker 1 00:36:47 So was that just a matter of like giving instructions ahead of time? So people would know what to do.
Speaker 2 00:36:53 Honestly, I don't remember what we did to make that accessible, but I know it was tagged so that the screen reader could interpret how that donut was being populated. So, and we don't want to give away too many trade secrets.
Speaker 1 00:37:09 Do you guys do lectures on website accessibility?
Speaker 2 00:37:15 We do. And we teach courses on how to apply WCJ principles to websites and how they impact all four disability classifications that are recognized by the government cognitive hearing sight and mobility. So we do a lot of teaching because that's really, you can't, you can't self teach this very well. It's hard.
Speaker 1 00:37:42 Yeah. And so you guys do this, I mean, you must have, there must be some people with some degrees or really deep knowledge of the rules and regulations out there because otherwise you wouldn't be able to teach it.
Speaker 2 00:38:00 Yeah. Well, you're talking to one of them and her name is Sue Ann Rodriguez used to be me, but I've become the company president and she knows way more than I do now. So,
Speaker 3 00:38:13 Well, we, we, we, um, the team that I manage, I'm really fortunate. There are all, some art, um, people, um, who want to learn, who take the initiative if they don't understand the standard or something like that, you know, they go and do research
Speaker 1 00:38:36 On it. Um, if a client has a question, we just had a coin ask us a question that really was, um, you know, could have been potentially challenging for us to respond to. But one of my team's staff members, I mean, she did her research and she provided an excellent response to this, you know, clients question. So, you know, I'm really fortunate to have a great team. And I, I wondered like how often did the standards change? I mean, sounds like they've been there for a while, but technology changes, everything changes even like how you're coding the new coding, you know, there's, they always come out with different like C sharp C plus plus C you know, all these different ways to program. So even that changes. So how does this affect you guys with the websites?
Speaker 2 00:39:36 Well, the web content accessibility guidelines or WCG are constantly evolving. Um, Monday we sponsor an accessibility twin cities meet up every other month, um, which review broadcast live on soon. We had Charles Hall who is part of the silver task group for the web, the W3C worldwide web consortium on Monday night with us. And he was talking about how, you know, they're getting ready to launch, to version 2.2, and that they're constantly looking at what's next, the latest version, uh, 2.1 AA info, more information, more standards that involved people living with cognitive disabilities. So, you know, it's, it's kind of like they, I, the way I perceive it as that tech tech changes, they change the WCD AIG to catch up with that. They realized that they may have not had enough guidance for a certain type of disability. Then they improve upon that. So it, it is really constantly evolving, which is part of Sue Ann and her group are really web content, accessibility, guidelines, scholars. They, they live it every day. They research it every day and they keep our clients abreast of all those changes.
Speaker 1 00:40:55 I'm presuming that your favorite client is maybe one that is just starting the build their website. And so you can kind of get in there and say, this is what you need to do. This is what you shouldn't do, things like that. So I'll, I'll respond to this question first then when I'll give you the chance to respond. But I think a favorite client that I would define as one who is proactive, you know, um, you know, wants to get things done, have the dev developers they're in different meetings, wants training. You know, that to me is a good are
Speaker 3 00:41:34 What I would call it a more favorable coins. I don't have no favorites, but I really like those clients that are proactive. And, you know, Hey, we'll do training in Hayden, the caliber. There has courses. I'm gonna have them in this meeting with you guys. I think it's great.
Speaker 2 00:41:55 Yeah. I have to agree. I mean, I think clients that are more challenging are the ones we often say, we're going to train you one way or the other. You're either going to wind up buying lots of consulting hours and asking us questions, or we could just make it easy and you can sit down and training with us. And then you really go into the results of your manual audit, knowing what you're doing. You know, so sometimes I think it's really hard when we have clients that expect that there's going to be one simple answer. And when they get their manual audit report back in their recommendations, and they realize that there are four different primary classifications of disabilities. And that they're expected to look at not just how this is going to impact a non-visual user, but someone with a hand tremor and they can get very frustrated. So it is easier when the client is excited to learn and wants the challenge, rather than just a simple checklist. I just want to be done with accessibility. That's not, that's not as easy to work with.
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Speaker 3 00:44:12 <inaudible> we're back. This is KPI 90.3, FM Minneapolis and cafe.org. You're listening to disability and progress. We're speaking with Lynn and wireman and our drinkers, and we're
Speaker 1 00:44:32 With Wego about web accessibility. So we have, um, discussed about that website. Accessibility is kind of the law of the land. Um, and what I want to talk about is what exactly does this mean? That it's a lot that your website should be accessible?
Speaker 2 00:44:59 Well, it's a good question. And I think it's one that people really grapple with. I think that when you look at where we are as a society, particularly in the United States, and a lot of what's happened since summer, we're really in a place where we all acknowledge that everybody deserves to have equal access to everything that is in the public domain. And so that is what website accessibility laws are seeking to bring that into reality for people living with disabilities. And, uh, you know, just like any law ignorance of the law does not excuse you from it. So part of what we try to do a week ago is first bring that understanding and bring it into context for clients and potential clients, and to try to give them approachable, starting steps and a plan so that they can, you know, ramp up and get it done. Um, it's important. Uh, John mats, a well-known accessibility specialist in the United States says that accessibility is a process. It is not a feature. It is not a switch that you can flip. It's not a magic wand. You can wave, it is learning a series of steps and we go farther and say, it's integrating it into your everyday process and making it normal.
Speaker 1 00:46:31 So if, I mean, what are the consequences if people do not do it?
Speaker 2 00:46:42 Well, I think we're seeing evidence of that quite a bit. Um, the, in front, in different legal realms, we're seeing, you know, everything from Domino's pizza website claims that we don't need to make our website accessible. Um, you know, federal courts disagree. I mean, the amount of the amount of money that they've spent trying to maintain that they don't need to make it accessible. I actually assess their website and for a fraction of cost, they spent on legal fees. We could have helped them get it fixed. Um, so I think there's something more there for them than just money. Um, but, uh, there's, there's that, and then we see lots and lots of school websites that are being reported to the federal office of civil rights. And they look into that because parents with children disabilities need to be able to access their webs, those websites, their kids need to be able to access.
Speaker 2 00:47:49 So I think we're really seeing that legally hit a whole bunch of different fronts. But the one that I often try to remind clients of is do you, the train has left the station on accessibility. There is no going back. We are not going to go back to a day where it is okay to not be accessible, which side of history do you really want to be on? You know, and we're looking at a demographic that in the United States, 26% of the us population now lives with a disability. Do you want to alienate 20%, 6% of potential market share? I know I don't as a company. So,
Speaker 1 00:48:29 So if that's the case, I mean, where are the teeth, like, what are the user's rights or do, I mean, I know I have seen the, the big corporations lawsuits and where, um, the users one, presumably was the website changed. I don't know this. I'm just asking you guys. Um, and is there enough teeth in the laws that will make things happen or can people just, yeah, maybe you get sued, but you can kind of sit there.
Speaker 2 00:49:10 Well, I think it is actually happening. Sam, what changed for us? And what's kind of fun about how the timing of, of Waco and it was created is that we, we, uh, started our company in 2011, but I often say that we wouldn't have a company if president Obama hadn't had a second term because in his second term, he launched a study on how section five Oh eight was being administered in the federal government and issued a report to Congress. And that's when it really came apparent that the government wasn't actually upholding section five Oh eight,
Speaker 1 00:49:50 They kind of sat on it.
Speaker 2 00:49:52 They appointed section five Oh eight monitors to every department of federal government. And that is what really started rolling the ball because it was a trickle down effect that people who organizations that wanted to sell software to the government suddenly couldn't do it unless they adhered to section five Oh eight. And that's partly where we got our start because there is a little company that started in st. Paul called gov delivery that came to us and we did their early testing and V packs. We actually now work with what that company became later, but that is, that is how disability accessibility, accessible websites started to gain traction. And that I think is also why we saw the uptick in lawsuits. The ADA is a civil rights law. So that means that when there is a ruling, it isn't about money. It's about fixing it. And so that's what we're seeing. And if you go back to like the target lawsuit, which I think was 2008, you'll see that all of those work, you have to fix the website. And that is the ruling.
Speaker 1 00:51:14 Okay. So if you have someone, let's just say that you're with a company and they're hosting your website and they said, yep, we're hosting it. And we're, you know, we're putting the content on it and yes, we will make sure it's accessible, but it's not accessible. What do you do?
Speaker 2 00:51:33 Well, I think the most important thing that you can do is vote with your dollars and check out those vendors before they built your website. We are actually, uh, developing a product to help our clients vet vendors before they hire a down. And there are really specific questions you can ask, because if you say, do you understand accessibility? They will all say yes, but there are that you can do all that.
Speaker 1 00:52:02 And well,
Speaker 2 00:52:03 And honestly, one of the simple things you can do is, is could, could you show us some websites you've done. We've had large corporations that have hired us to vet some of their vendors and look at their websites. So there, there are ways to find out before you hire them.
Speaker 1 00:52:18 Right. Um, so we're going to have to, uh, wrap up in about four minutes or so. I wanted to know, I want to give you guys this chance to talk about anything that you feel was mr. Anything you'd like to bring up in regards to we go and accessible websites and employment awarement awareness month for this people with disabilities. Um, anything else,
Speaker 2 00:52:46 Ann, any comments,
Speaker 1 00:52:48 No worries that you would like to talk about, you know, the website and a few that we're going to have coming up here in October, but I'm good though.
Speaker 2 00:53:00 Okay. Well, I think that in closing it is national disability employment awareness month, and I'm honored Sam that you chose us to kick off the first day of the week.
Speaker 1 00:53:09 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:53:13 National disability employment awareness month is a lot like Christmas to us that week because we really showcase what we do. So I think it's important to realize that there are really and savvy people out there who live with disabilities that have been relegated to the sidelines of life. And it's important to, uh, patronize businesses that are, are run and employ people who live with disabilities. But if you want to learn more about how to employ people who live with disabilities, our website is the week out T H E w E C o.com. And if you go to our, give that again, T H E w E C o.com the wico.com. If you go to our resource tab, we have an events page. All right.
Speaker 1 00:54:07 Right. Well, this sounds like an excellent time to do it. I know a lot of people who are looking for jobs nonetheless, as well, and I guess virtual is our new normal, right?
Speaker 2 00:54:20 Yeah. It's great because it, you know, it just makes so much possible.
Speaker 1 00:54:26 It does make so much possible. It also though, I think sets an extra high bar and also a little more pressure, I think on people, um, in some respects, but, uh, it's so funny because I teach accessibility products and I have been doing it virtually, um, way before this. And, uh, swear knows. Um, but you know, now it's become the new normal. So I want to thank you both for being on. I really appreciate it. This has been disability and progress. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of cafe or its board of directors. My name is Sam. I'm the host of this show. Charlene doll is my research team and Harvo engineers. We were speaking with Lynn wireman. Who's the president of Waco and Sue Rodriquez. And I've got your title. I apologize who had it is thank you, director of disability services.
Speaker 0 00:55:22 Thank you. <inaudible>.
